What to do? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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DonP

06-12-2005, 09:32 PM

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, 4 folds, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, Button bets, SB folds, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 folds.

Turn: (4 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Button raises, Hero?

karitek

06-12-2005, 09:40 PM

Any reads?

Unless he was ultra-passive, i'd call down unless a 4th spade fell on the river.

itsmesteve

06-12-2005, 10:09 PM

Fold the flop.

@bsolute_luck

06-12-2005, 10:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Fold the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

aeakos

06-12-2005, 10:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Fold the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

silkyslim

06-12-2005, 10:42 PM

I'd fold on the flop, the pot is very small and all you have is a gutshot. As for the turn after you hit your straight, I am lost because it completes the flush and it is 2 cold to you. Since we all agree to fold the flop, just pretend it got checked through. What is the turn play????

bozlax

06-12-2005, 11:32 PM

Once you're to the turn, call down. Button could have ace-rag that he's trying to pass off as a flush, he could have a set of 8s, anything.

But, and I think I've heard this said somewhere else, fold the flop.

AlmightyJay

06-12-2005, 11:48 PM

Fold the flop. You're getting 6:1 on a 3-out draw.

CWsports

06-13-2005, 12:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Fold the flop. You're getting 6:1 on a 3-out draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I count 4 outs to the 9 and 4 outs to the K for a total of 8 outs. I'd then discount this to 7 outs as the 9s or Ks could give someone a flush.

bottomset

06-13-2005, 12:06 AM

guys he's doublegutted both to the nut straight

reads on the players?

istewart

06-13-2005, 12:09 AM

Eh, I would be inclined to fold this turn without reads. Sucky situation, as you're not closing the action and a /images/graemlins/spade.gif on the river pwns you (if you're not already beat). But betting the turn would have been better.

Why is everyone saying fold? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Jakesta

06-13-2005, 12:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Why is everyone saying fold? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Because they can't see that he's doubled gutted and think that he just has a gutshot nut straight draw.

scotty34

06-13-2005, 12:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Why is everyone saying fold? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Because they can't see that he's doubled gutted and think that he just has a gutshot nut straight draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good to see at least some people are learning some things from 2+2 /images/graemlins/cool.gif

Jakesta

06-13-2005, 12:27 AM

scotty34

06-13-2005, 12:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Why is everyone saying fold? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Because they can't see that he's doubled gutted and think that he just has a gutshot nut straight draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good to see at least some people are learning some things from 2+2 /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

These hands are admittedly tough to see if you don't have a lot of experience. I caught it right away but it might have been luck. It is also hard to spot wheel draws coming in sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually thats true, I've had A high on more than one occassion with 2345 on the board and only called a river bet or even folded because I missed it.

bozlax

06-13-2005, 12:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Why is everyone saying fold? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Because they can't see that he's doubled gutted and think that he just has a gutshot nut straight draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good to see at least some people are learning some things from 2+2 /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm willing to admit that I missed the double-gut, but IMO that still doesn't make it good enough. Discount for the flush cards and that leaves 6 outs and you're only getting 6-1 from the pot on what's an almost 8-1 call. It's too late for my head to work out how many players you have to hold onto on the flop and turn for the implieds to work out right, so I'll just call it unlikely /images/graemlins/tongue.gif.

Edited to correct the pot odds.

bozlax

06-13-2005, 12:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
These hands are admittedly tough to see if you don't have a lot of experience. I caught it right away but it might have been luck. It is also hard to spot wheel draws coming in sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will say, I'm much better at spotting them when I'm playing a hand than when I'm reviewing one, for some reason. I'm also a much better pool player after I've had a few drinks.

Jakesta

06-13-2005, 12:35 AM

What about implied odds bozlax? Surely you can peel one here.

And I think that Hero has to call here on the turn. UTG could be betting his crappy two pair like KT and Button could be raising a set of eights or something.

istewart

06-13-2005, 12:43 AM

Removing the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif/9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif completely as outs is not correct. A flush draw will not always be out. I'd give Hero about 7-7.3 outs (guesstimate).

bozlax

06-13-2005, 12:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What about implied odds bozlax? Surely you can peel one here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sheeit. I said I wasn't going to figure that out! Ok, well, you lost 2 players on the flop, so if you didn't hit it on the turn you no longer had the odds to call a turn bet, even with implieds. There. Oh, wait, that's results-oriented. Ok, uh, unless you have a read that 3 of the other 4 players seeing the flop are going to call down (and you've already lost 1, so that means that everybody else has to stay in), you're not going to be able to make up enough to make the call. IMO.

As for calling the turn once you made your hand, about a lifetime ago (look up the thread a little bit), in my first response to this thread I said once you make your hand on the turn you have to call down...I'll amend that now to say you have to call down regardless of what falls on the river. Villan came alive on the flop, so he could be betting ace-rag, two pair, a set of 8s, anything. If he was on a flush draw on the flop, I'd think he might've been willing to let it check through, and only raised if he could trap the field for 2.

bozlax

06-13-2005, 12:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Removing the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif/9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif completely as outs is not correct. A flush draw will not always be out. I'd give Hero about 7-7.3 outs (guesstimate).

[/ QUOTE ]

Which still isn't enough only getting 6-1 from the pot unless 3 of your 4 opponents stay in, and you've already lost 1. I'm getting some SERIOUS deja vu, here!

no1super2001

06-13-2005, 01:53 AM

Here is an idea, FIGURE IT OUT FOR YOURSELF!

You have 44 posts and have never contributed to a thread that you did not originate. Not only that, you provide no context for your question.

Threads like this waste everyones time, and make the forum less that it could be. Please consider that before adding another such post.

Thank you.

Aaron W.

06-13-2005, 02:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Removing the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif/9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif completely as outs is not correct. A flush draw will not always be out. I'd give Hero about 7-7.3 outs (guesstimate).

[/ QUOTE ]

Which still isn't enough only getting 6-1 from the pot unless 3 of your 4 opponents stay in, and you've already lost 1. I'm getting some SERIOUS deja vu, here!

[/ QUOTE ]

With 7 outs and 47 unseen cards, Hero needs 40:7, which is 5.7:1. I don't know how you're getting your numbers.

DonP

06-13-2005, 02:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You have 44 posts and have never contributed to a thread that you did not originate.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't feel comfortable giving other people advice yet.

[ QUOTE ]
Threads like this waste everyones time

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

benkath1

06-13-2005, 02:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't feel comfortable giving other people advice yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you. Give it a try though. Then you can see if you are making the right decisions on your own.

I found this thread interesting.

After reading responses, due to not knowing what I would do, I agree that calling down unless another /images/graemlins/spade.gif falls on the river is proably best. Not fun, but best.

GL

Aaron W.

06-13-2005, 02:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have 44 posts and have never contributed to a thread that you did not originate.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't feel comfortable giving other people advice yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not why you post advice. You post advice to get criticism so that thought processes can be corrected.

Read this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2615331&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1), and especially focus on the paragraph under "This is where the rubber meets the road."

Then read the challenge (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=micro&Number=2089249&F orum=All_Forums&Words=challenge%20-re&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=2089249&Search=true& where=sub&Name=16000&daterange=1&newerval=&newerty pe=w&olderval=1&oldertype=d&bodyprev=#Post2089249) and try it out. You'll learn much more much faster this way.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Threads like this waste everyones time

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a little bit of an overstatement. Basic posts are welcome here just as much as other posts. However, you're asking questions which suggest that you have very little understanding of the game of poker (not that you don't know how to play the game, but you have a very small conceptual understanding of the underlying ideas of solid poker play). You would be well advised to go out and buy Winning Low Limit Hold'em and Small Stakes Hold'em, and reading through them both (in that order).

no1super2001

06-13-2005, 02:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have 44 posts and have never contributed to a thread that you did not originate.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't feel comfortable giving other people advice yet.

[ QUOTE ]
Threads like this waste everyones time

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

That notion is understandable, but I think you should read this post. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=micro&Number=2089249&fpart =&PHPSESSID=)

Why? - Because there is no substance in your post that has not been covered a hundred times before. In addition, the question is covered without ambiguity in SSHE. The archives are a great source of information like this.

DonP

06-13-2005, 02:58 AM

Ok, thanks.

Entity

06-13-2005, 03:03 AM

I'd bet the turn. Given that you checked and it's now 2 bets to you and you're not closing the action and the pot is small, well, I don't think you'd be giving up a lot by folding, but it'd help to have some sort of read on your opponents.

AlmightyJay

06-13-2005, 11:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold the flop. You're getting 6:1 on a 3-out draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I count 4 outs to the 9 and 4 outs to the K for a total of 8 outs. I'd then discount this to 7 outs as the 9s or Ks could give someone a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, whoops, I completely missed that this was a double-gutshot draw. Nevermind!

AmarilloJim1

06-13-2005, 11:50 AM

You did not have the pot odds to call this bet on the flop.

Jaran

06-13-2005, 11:55 AM

He's double gutted.

-Jaran

AmarilloJim1

06-13-2005, 11:57 AM

I just noticed that...I'm at work right now, so I overlook things...

Thanks for pointing that out.

Peace