comments...

[curtains]

I yearn to post a hand where people call me stupid. This one Im basically risking 540 to win 1340 assuming BB folds (which they will a large %, this guy seemed pretty tight). I was of course mocked at the table after the hand....what do you think?


***** Hand History for Game 2197460886 *****
NL Hold'em $100 Buy-in + $9 Entry Fee Trny:13039246 Level:7 Blinds(200/400) - Sunday, June 12, 19:22:56 EDT 2005
Table Table 11709 (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 2: curtainz ( $2320 )
Seat 3: BenFosterPro ( $1608 )
Seat 5: AARothstein ( $1655 )
Seat 7: acesneverlos ( $2250 )
Seat 8: club107 ( $747 )
Seat 10: antonio1975 ( $1420 )
Trny:13039246 Level:7
Blinds(200/400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to curtainz [ 4c Jc ]
AARothstein folds.
acesneverlos folds.
club107 is all-In [747]
>You have options at Table 14238 Table!.
>You have options at Table 14238 Table!.
>You have options at Table 11246 Table!.
>You have options at Table 14238 Table!.
>You have options at Table 11246 Table!.
antonio1975 folds.
curtainz is all-In [2120]
>You have options at Table 11246 Table!.
BenFosterPro folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 7d, Ac, Qs ]
>You have options at Table 14238 Table!.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9h ]
** Dealing River ** [ 3c ]
curtainz shows [ 4c, Jc ] high card ace.
club107 shows [ 8h, 8c ] a pair of eights.
curtainz wins 1573 chips from side pot #1 with high card ace.
club107 wins 1894 chips from the main pot with a pair of eights.
thanks

[valenzuela]

ur post is worthless without the insults.

[curtains]

***** Hand History for Game 2197465528 *****
NL Hold'em $100 Buy-in + $9 Entry Fee Trny:13039246 Level:7 Blinds(200/400) - Sunday, June 12, 19:23:51 EDT 2005
Table Table 11709 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 2: curtainz ( $1573 )
Seat 3: BenFosterPro ( $1208 )
Seat 5: AARothstein ( $1655 )
Seat 7: acesneverlos ( $2250 )
Seat 8: club107 ( $1894 )
Seat 10: antonio1975 ( $1420 )
Trny:13039246 Level:7
Blinds(200/400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to curtainz [ 2h 8d ]
>You have options at Table 11246 Table!.
acesneverlos folds.
club107 folds.
BenFosterPro: that was dumb. I would have won
antonio1975 has been reconnected and has 20 seconds to act.
well call it
>You have options at Table 11246 Table!.
antonio1975 folds.
i appreciated it
why raise someone who's all in?
curtainz folds.
so you dont call
with nothing?
exactly what she wanted
BenFosterPro folds.
AARothstein does not show cards.
AARothstein wins 600 chips
>You have options at Table 14238 Table!.
well i cant explain that part
***** Hand History for Game 2197470421 *****
NL Hold'em $100 Buy-in + $9 Entry Fee Trny:13039246 Level:7 Blinds(200/400) - Sunday, June 12, 19:24:48 EDT 2005
Table Table 11709 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 2: curtainz ( $1573 )
Seat 3: BenFosterPro ( $1008 )
Seat 5: AARothstein ( $1855 )
Seat 7: acesneverlos ( $2250 )
Seat 8: club107 ( $1894 )
Seat 10: antonio1975 ( $1420 )
Trny:13039246 Level:7
Blinds(200/400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to curtainz [ As Kd ]
club107 folds.
>You have options at Table 14238 Table!.
>You have options at Table 11246 Table!.
antonio1975 folds.
>You have options at Table 14238 Table!.
club107: i guess its another retard trying to get lukcy
curtainz is all-In [1573]
>You have options at Table 14238 Table!.
BenFosterPro folds.
AARothstein folds.
acesneverlos folds.
curtainz does not show cards.
curtainz wins 2173 chips



Somehow it doesnt seem to list whom is making the comments.

[Bigwig]

Well, the pot odds are in your favor if BB folds, but they aren't exceptionally good. Also, there isn't a significant other shorty, so I think your fold equity is pretty marginal. Perhaps it's a small leak, but I think I'd pass with J4. I'd probably do it with a slightly better hand.

[curtains]

My fold equity is extremely high....almost no one will call without a great hand against 2 allin players, especially someone who was clearly playing very tight. Also I'm suited, I would not have done it if I was offsuit.

For instance I would expect the BB to fold ATo here. Trust me the chances of the BB overcalling 2 raises was not very high...I'd say under 10%.

[Bigwig]

Lucky retard. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[valenzuela]

Im not sure if they play is good given the chances that BB might call...

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
Also I'm suited, I would not have done it if I was offsuit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha.

Two players all-in here is relatively meaningless to the BB. After all, he's calling the short stack push with any 2, unless he's a donk.

So if I'm in the BB, I'm concerned solely with what YOU have, and I'm putting you on a big range here with 5BB in the SB.

[curtains]

btw one factor is that it does kill my image if I lose the hand, and should hurt my steal equity a bit. I don't think Id have done it if I had like 300 less chips to begin the hand. Also being suited is very important, it usually adds like 3-4% points to my winning chances, which is very signifigant here.

[vinyard]

I don't know if I do this with J4s but I think your reasoning is solid given your read on the BB. You get knoocked down to about 1600 chips which won't result in a significant decrease in folding equity.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
Also being suited is very important, it usually adds like 3-4% points to my winning chances, which is very signifigant here.

[/ QUOTE ]

On this hand it's probably worth about 3.5%, yeah.

It's not worth that normally against a tight range, though. But, I'm guessing you know that.

[KingDan]

I really like this play.
Even if he shows a pair >5 you are getting priced in, (assuming bb folds).

He can have an incredibly wide range here, as some players just want to be first in.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also I'm suited, I would not have done it if I was offsuit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha.

Two players all-in here is relatively meaningless to the BB. After all, he's calling the short stack push with any 2, unless he's a donk.

So if I'm in the BB, I'm concerned solely with what YOU have, and I'm putting you on a big range here with 5BB in the SB.

[/ QUOTE ]


You aren't the BB. Most people see 2 allins and they get out of dodge.

[treeofwisdom7]

curtains ive been trying to read your hand . i cant figure out what happened. seems like you made the right move. i think you pushed and won a big side pot which was a genius idea if that was your plan preflop. if that was the hand you posted then your just trying to show off..

GJ

[microbet]

Someone should be calling you a moron here. Come on someone!

You are intentionally putting yourself in a situation I hate. That being when you are in the BB with a healthy stack and you have to call the short (but not tiny) stack with what is certainly a worse hand.

I think you have to put the short stack on a pretty broad range, but that is probably the case here.

The chat wondering why you would think of raising someone who is all-in was interesting.

[treeofwisdom7]

[ QUOTE ]
Someone should be calling you a moron here. Come on someone!

You are intentionally putting yourself in a situation I hate. That being when you are in the BB with a healthy stack and you have to call the short (but not tiny) stack with what is certainly a worse hand.

I think you have to put the short stack on a pretty broad range, but that is probably the case here.

The chat wondering why you would think of raising someone who is all-in was interesting.

[/ QUOTE ]

if i was thinking around the line of curtains .. playing the 5000$ buy ins against tight wads that you know would never in a million years call an all in when they are gonna make the money. even if they had AA they might fold to curtains all in bet..


CURTAINS HELLL YA!
your so good people dont understand why you are. HAHA.

[The Yugoslavian]

I like curtains' play.....I think he's right that BB isn't calling here without a pretty 'big' hand. I also think his hand is good enough as is (especially b/c of the suitedness) to make taking a shot at all those chips in the middle worth it.

I will sometimes make this move I think and sometimes not...depends on how I feel about the table and BB.

Yugoslav

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
curtains ive been trying to read your hand . i cant figure out what happened. seems like you made the right move. i think you pushed and won a big side pot which was a genius idea if that was your plan preflop. if that was the hand you posted then your just trying to show off..

GJ

[/ QUOTE ]

No I lost the hand with J4s...the other hands I posted were just so you could see the rest of the table mocking me, as requested by valenzuela.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
Someone should be calling you a moron here. Come on someone!

You are intentionally putting yourself in a situation I hate. That being when you are in the BB with a healthy stack and you have to call the short (but not tiny) stack with what is certainly a worse hand.

I think you have to put the short stack on a pretty broad range, but that is probably the case here.

The chat wondering why you would think of raising someone who is all-in was interesting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im confused as to what you mean about putting myself in a situation you hate? I'm not BB for 4 more hands anyway if I lose.

[Moonsugar]

I just played a very similar hand (600 to win 1400), although my hand had more strength:

***** Hand History for Game -2098311830 *****
400/800 TOURNEYTEXASHTGAMETABLE (NL) (TOURNAMENT 13034986) - SUN JUN 12 16:46:25 EDT 2005
Table Table 12125 (Real Money) -- Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 3: khakio123 (1440)
Seat 4: Skooma (1500)
Seat 5: Gun29 (1240)
Seat 8: louisa77 (810)
Seat 9: vismu (5010)
Skooma posts small blind (200)
Gun29 posts big blind (400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Skooma [ 9c, Kc ]
louisa77 raises (810) to 810
louisa77 is all-In.
vismu folds.
khakio123 folds.
Skooma raises (1300) to 1500
Skooma is all-In.
Gun29 folds.
Creating Main Pot with $2020 with louisa77
Creating Side Pot 1 with $690 with Skooma
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 5h, Js, 2c ]
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 6c ]
** Dealing River ** : [ 4c ]
** Summary **
Main Pot: 2020 | Side Pot 1: 690
Board: [ 5h Js 2c 6c 4c ]
khakio123 balance 1440, didn't bet (folded)
Skooma balance 2710, bet 1500, collected 2710, net +1210 [ 9c Kc ] [ a flush, king high -- Kc,9c,6c,4c,2c ]
Gun29 balance 840, lost 400 (folded)
louisa77 balance 0, lost 810 [ Jd 9s ] [ a pair of jacks -- Jd,Js,9s,6c,5h ]
vismu balance 5010, didn't bet (folded)

I ended up coming in 2nd to vismu. I say 'gg', he responds: 'fu'. LOL.

[microbet]

I guess it wasn't a good response, being as it was misunderstood in two different ways.

First (to TOW), I wasn't calling Curtains a moron. I just think that some excellent players would argue with the move and I'd welcome the argument (Lorinda?). Also, this was a $109.

To Curtains, I just meant that it is a lot like a situation when you are in the BB and 'only' have to put in 500 more to win 1300 and you have to do it with a weak hand. I don't pass up these calls, I just don't like them. I should probably just start liking them or something.

Anyway, I've played with the numbers a bit and I think your move is +$EV and unsuited it is -$EV, though I didn't do anything about the BB calls, which I agree will be rare, but will sometimes happen.

[Nick B.]

Curtains, I would like it if you had a little bit bigger stack, but I don't think it is bad as is.

[adanthar]

K9s there is totally standard.

J4s...I think I want a few more chips in the pot for that.

[Newt_Buggs]

is this sort of like the gigabet post? If you lose, you still have enough chips to get FE but if you win then you will have a dominating chip lead with which to bully the rest of the table.

[ QUOTE ]
btw one factor is that it does kill my image if I lose the hand, and should hurt my steal equity a bit.

[/ QUOTE ]
with the pot odds so close I think that this is an important factor and the influence that it has depends on the table. In my experience bad players are going to increase their calling standards after seeing this significantly more than good players. In future hands, good players are going to know that you are pushing trash regardless of this hand but won't want to call and bust out. Bad players will assume that you are a maniac and have trouble laying down their shiny A/images/graemlins/heart.gif7/images/graemlins/heart.gif on the bubble.

[Matt R.]

I think that this hand may be a perfect example of the idea Gigabet was talking about in his thread. With the blinds at 200/400, and the stack sizes as they are, I would say one 'block' of chips as Gigabet referred to them would be around 1200-1400 chips. Most players have around 1 'block' of chips in this hand except for curtains and aceneverlos. The amount of chips in the pot is around 1350 -- precisely what one 'block' is. Should curtains lose this hand, he loses about 550 extra chips than he would have had he folded. 550 is substantially less than one 'block', so losing this hand puts him in about the same shape as if he folded. Basically, the value of the chips in the pot exceeds the value that the pot odds would suggest due to the size of the blinds and stack sizes of the rest of the players at the table. Edit -- and the value of an extra 1350, one block of chips, greatly increases his chances of winning by allowing him to play much more loosely. This extra block of chips can effectively put pressure on the rest of the medium stacks by threatening their whole stack while providing little risk to curtains.

[hansarnic]

If your BB read is correct then I think the only reason not to is loss of image (if you still have it...), it's clearly a good gamble in its own right.

Just claim you were multi-tabling & mis-clicked.

[jaym96822]

I would also make this play almost every time at the 109s, but I have a question:

What's the WORST hand you would do this with? T4s? 93s?

At what point do you feel the chance of winning the hand isn't sufficient justification for the risk of a BB call?

[Nottom]

I think I could say Something about blocks of chips and -EV plays if I actually had a clue what any of it meant.