Ok having argument with friend

[curtains]

Ok there is a friend of mine who plays sit and gos a lot and I think he's making an unforgivable mistake repeatedly and I want to prove to him that it's completely absurd the way he is playing.

Basically if he has 22 in a low limit sit and go, and 3 people limp for 15, he will fold. Who here thinks its okay, and who here thinks its completely ridiculous?

[durron597]

I [ QUOTE ]
thinks its completely ridiculous?

[/ QUOTE ]

[BDarch]

that is ridiculous, what is his reasioning?

[Voltron87]

this is awful.

edit- not even close, nothing more to be said, etc. its just awful.

[Sabrazack]

Folding this is just stupid :P

[Nick B.]

He is obviously saving chips for fold equity later.

[gumpzilla]

I'm not sure that the opinions of a bunch of 2+2 posters is going to "prove" this if he doesn't believe it already. I don't like it, but I'm not sure that I'd say it's completely ridiculous. Does your friend play super tight early in general? From this description it sounds like he does. Does he play against a fairly regular, astute group who might notice this? If so, then the implied odds for him hitting his set are probably good but not great. While he's probably still giving up some EV here, it's conceivable to me that with a super-tight style in a good game he can't play this hand as profitably as some.

EDIT: I missed the key phrase low-limit. That makes it much worse.

[curtains]

Hes playing low limit sit and gos against huge idiots on PartyPoker.

[Bigwig]

I don't know if it's 'completely ridiculous' but it's definitely a bad fold.

[Daliman]

I've heard that LL strategy is to fold anything below 5's in cases such as this, because you start out with so few chips, so I'd say it's not really wrong, But I SURE a hell call there.

Hell, I might raise for value! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[johnnybeef]

it sucks

[lacky]

I dont fold it, but I dont fold AJs, KQs, etc either, so I'm no help in that arguement.

Steve

[curtains]

Well thats because folding AJs and KQs in those low limit games is also ridiculous in that situation.

[ChuckyB]

Against a raise UTG maybe. But you pray for (and prey on) multiple limpers with 22. He's adhering to strongly to Cloutier's axiom that "little cards are poison in hold'em"

[45suited]

If I think that the table is passive enough to let me, I will at least limp with any PP from any position in level 1. Huge implied odds and easy to play post flop.

IMO, your friend is making a big mistake.

[maddog2030]

Why is there an argument? Just do the math. You have a 11.7% or 7.5:1 of flopping trips or better. He's already getting 4.7:1 on his money. If he can average a profit of an additional 50 chips postflop (or maybe say 75 to take into account getting pushed out of the pot preflop occassionally by someone else acting later) then this is a clear call. If he doesn't think he can, then fold. I play low limit SNGs and fairly often double up when I hit any type of trips.

[Voltron87]

you do realize that a 3-4 BB raise UTG usually makes 22 more playable?

plus, applying cloutiers axiom to both 24o and 33 is just moronic.

[microbet]

Tell Yugo to man up and call.

[Jay36489]

[ QUOTE ]
you do realize that a 3-4 BB raise UTG usually makes 22 more playable?

plus, applying cloutiers axiom to both 24o and 33 is just moronic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please elaborate.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you do realize that a 3-4 BB raise UTG usually makes 22 more playable?

plus, applying cloutiers axiom to both 24o and 33 is just moronic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please elaborate.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with that statement, because you are simply risking a much larger % of your stack when there's a raise.

[Voltron87]

its an exaggeration.

when someone has a hand like AA or KK, and raises to 3-4BB in level one of a low limit sng, 22 is awesome.

[11t]

This is ridiculous, hit that set and double up baby.

[microbet]

Whether it is better to face limps or a raise is a matter of opinion or for someone with a million hands of data to prove, but the idea is that you have better implied odds if there has been a raise.

[Ryendal]

4 in the hand and u want the trip. All is ok for the call

[Unarmed]

I'm pretty sure Yugo would call here.
I'm also 100% sure both Yugo and I would fold 22 UTG at the low level SNGs. It has nothing to do with being a p*ssy and everything to do with the fact that the typical opening raise on Level 1 is 100 chips.

[Ryendal]

right

[Bluff Daddy]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure Yugo would call here.
I'm also 100% sure both Yugo and I would fold 22 UTG at the low level SNGs. It has nothing to do with being a p*ssy and everything to do with the fact that the typical opening raise on Level 1 is 100 chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

far from it

[Ryendal]

Well, like I remember it now, I fold too here :-)

[microbet]

By defending Yugo you are endangering his status as the forum's whipping boy. With friends like you....

[Unarmed]

Sorry, this isn't subjective. 50BB stacks is not enough to be playing 22 UTG in any situation where you cannot rebuy, and if anyone thinks otherwise they are wrong because I said so.

Tralalalalalala I am so bored at work...

[adanthar]

Aw. [censored]. Ful.

I forget how aggressive those lowbie SNG's are but if those pots are raised...let's call it <50% of the time, I'd limp it UTG, too.

[jgunnip]

Not that this hasn't already been beaten into the ground enough but I agree that its completely awful.

Not to be results oriented or anything but yesturday I decided to try a 33. First hand MP I'm dealt 22. two limpers, i limp and whoa, four more limpers and the blinds so its nine-handed to the flop. long story short. flop is JA2 and by the end of the hand I have 40% of the chips in play /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[SuitedSixes]

I haven't even completed the SB with 22 in Levels 1-3 for 6 months. But that's just because I don't feel comfortable with the lowest possible set, in the worst possible position, that is only going to make that set 11.8% of the time. Plus, I like later on when the blinds are actually worth something, and I push with a car wash coupon and my mother's lasagna recipe and the guy to be left says, "He hasn't played a hand all day," and mucks his tens.

But that's just me, I encourage everyone else to play all the small pocket pairs you want . . . especially at my table.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't even completed the SB with 22 in Levels 1-3 for 6 months.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh man, not the threat of set over set *whimper*

Level 1:
55/11,732 hands - VP$IP 81.82 - 0.30 BB - biggest win t990 - biggest loss t65
Level 2:
46/11,657 hands - VP$IP 71.74 - 0.43 BB - biggest win t905 - biggest loss t75

[curtains]

I haven't even completed the SB with 22 in Levels 1-3 for 6 months. But that's just because I don't feel comfortable with the lowest possible set, in the worst possible position, that is only going to make that set 11.8% of the time. Plus, I like later on when the blinds are actually worth something, and I push with a car wash coupon and my mother's lasagna recipe and the guy to be left says, "He hasn't played a hand all day," and mucks his tens.

But that's just me, I encourage everyone else to play all the small pocket pairs you want . . . especially at my table.

[/ QUOTE ]


How often can such faulty reasoning be posted on this forum? No one gives a crap that you folded a lot in the 10-15 round and is going to make exceptionally tight folds because of it. NO ONE CARES AT ALL, its a completely absurd line of thought and I can't believe that people can continously post such nonsense and not be lambasted for it.


[ QUOTE ]

But that's just me, I encourage everyone else to play all the small pocket pairs you want . . . especially at my table.

[/ QUOTE ]

What, you are going to crush me because I call with 22 early in a sit and go? Do you realize how much +EV these little pairs are for a good player when playing with idiots? To go out of your way to say you hope such players that dare to call with small pairs early in a tournament are at your table is just stupid. As though you are going to punish them somehow.

I have huge +EV based on thousands of these hands in the first 2-3 levels. Also the 15 chips I invest to see the flop with them mean very little whereas the times that I double up mean a lot.

[freemoney]

LOL WOW, JUST WOW.

[vinyard]

[ QUOTE ]
How often can such faulty reasoning be posted on this forum? No one gives a crap that you folded a lot in the 10-15 round and is going to make exceptionally tight folds because of it. NO ONE CARES AT ALL, its a completely absurd line of thought and I can't believe that people can continously post such nonsense and not be lambasted for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you put an end to that, eh? In response to your original post this is unquestionably a leak in your friend's game.

[johnnybeef]

especially at the level that you play suited, sets are beautiful things (think addonnis and aphrodite like beauty). with the ability that (i assume) you have to extract chips later in the tourney, you can afford to call a small raise with a hand like that.

[rybones]

I agree completely, small pairs good at low limits! why not take fish's money before fish leaves? this is especially true as I know I will have to fold to -- what was it -- a car wash coupon and a lasagna recipe.

Now my question is: if it is correct to limp with small pairs is it also correct to limp with hands such as T,J soooted? I know tons of folks who will call with the pairs but fold the large soooted connectors. Are the odds of hitting a str8, a flush or two pair about the same as hitting a set?

anyone have any thoughts?

Ryan

[curtains]

I almost always fold hands liek JTs and QJs in early/mid position in sit and gos, however in late position they can be playable, but you hvae to be careful, and sometimes be willing to fold with top pair to a single bet in a multiway pot.

[SuitedSixes]

You are entitled to your opinion, as am I. There is not one correct way to play these tournaments, and I have never asserted that there is.

My style of play is better suited for folding 22 early. Yours isn't. I fail to see what the big deal is. All I know is that I have never lost a tournament because I folded 22.

[freemoney]

YOU ARE BEING VERY IGNORANT. VERY IGNORANT.

[rybones]

[ QUOTE ]
I almost always fold hands liek JTs and QJs in early/mid position in sit and gos, however in late position they can be playable, but you hvae to be careful, and sometimes be willing to fold with top pair to a single bet in a multiway pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, I completely agree!!! that said I wonder if you or any math folks out there can give me the combined odds of hitting two pair, a str8, or a flush on the flop? When I play these hands it is from the hijack or later and I am looking for a monster rather than top pair.

Additionally, I have used the dreaded "min-raise" from the sb and bb when there are lots of limpers level 1. I have found that 4 or 5 will call without raising and when I hit I really get paid off. The loss of the t30 can easily be made back in levels 3 and beyond. A

gain, any thoughts?

Ryan

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
You are entitled to your opinion, as am I. There is not one correct way to play these tournaments, and I have never asserted that there is.

My style of play is better suited for folding 22 early. Yours isn't. I fail to see what the big deal is. All I know is that I have never lost a tournament because I folded 22.

[/ QUOTE ]

The big deal is that you basically say that you hope everyone who calls with 22 is at your table. You are entitled to your opinion but once you start acting like everyone who plays differently than you, can somehow be exploited in an easy way, then its just stupid.

Obviously even though I think it's correct to play these pairs, I'm going to gain almost nothing by playing with players who don't play them. If I made an ignorant comment such as "I hope all you guys who fold 22 come play with me, then I should be flamed."

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I almost always fold hands liek JTs and QJs in early/mid position in sit and gos, however in late position they can be playable, but you hvae to be careful, and sometimes be willing to fold with top pair to a single bet in a multiway pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, I completely agree!!! that said I wonder if you or any math folks out there can give me the combined odds of hitting two pair, a str8, or a flush on the flop? When I play these hands it is from the hijack or later and I am looking for a monster rather than top pair.

Additionally, I have used the dreaded "min-raise" from the sb and bb when there are lots of limpers level 1. I have found that 4 or 5 will call without raising and when I hit I really get paid off. The loss of the t30 can easily be made back in levels 3 and beyond. A

gain, any thoughts?

Ryan

[/ QUOTE ]

I will never min raise from the blinds against a lot of limpers with a hand like JTs early in a sit and go. NEVER. First you are killing yourself if someone limp reraises. Secondly you'll probably get paid off if you don't raise.

[AliasMrJones]

[ QUOTE ]
You are entitled to your opinion, as am I. There is not one correct way to play these tournaments, and I have never asserted that there is.

My style of play is better suited for folding 22 early. Yours isn't. I fail to see what the big deal is. All I know is that I have never lost a tournament because I folded 22.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is so bad I don't even know where to start. You won't even complete in the SB on a 12% chance to hit a set getting 6 or 7-1 immediate pot odds and a boatload of implied odds because once in a blue moon you'll get hit with set-over-set. Oh, yeah, and you want to maintain your "tight" image. Really, really bad.

[SuitedSixes]

Everyone who plays 22, or any other speculative hand at my table in the early rounds is donating +$EV to me. If there a four players in a hand in which I fold, three of them are going to be worse off than me at the end of the hand. I am not saying that I am far superior because I don't play 22, or don't need to play 22.

I recognize and respect the value of hands like this when each individual hand played has its own value, like in a ring game, but for my big picture view of a SNG, folding hands like that makes sense, for me.

Please continue to play them, I hope that they are very profitable for you.

/Your underwear may now unbunch.

[curtains]

Sorry I just have a pet peeve whenever anyone ends their response with "I hope players like you play at my table". I think you are going to make a lot more EV playing with the average partypoker player as opposed to a 2+2'er who may occasionally play 22 for 15 chips before the flop.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone who plays 22, or any other speculative hand at my table in the early rounds is donating +$EV to me. If there a four players in a hand in which I fold, three of them are going to be worse off than me at the end of the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

And the fourth will be far better off.

It is true that not playing speculative hands early does not lose tourneys, but I am also going to guess that you get less firsts because of it.

[SuitedSixes]

It's my fault for even venturing into a post in which my style is so different from most players. It won't happen again . . . or for, at least, another 6 months.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't even completed the SB with 22 in Levels 1-3 for 6 months. But that's just because I don't feel comfortable with the lowest possible set, in the worst possible position, that is only going to make that set 11.8% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your "feelings" need major adjustments.

eastbay