Help me understand this concept, two overpair hands.

[JackThree]

i played this hand today.
limped in CO with 6d 4d, button folded~
flop comes 4c Jd 6s
a guy in ep bets, a couple of callers in front of me, i think "hmm i have two pair, i should raise" but the part in SSHE "two overpair hands" has the hand with TT you know, and it says to wait til the turn to see if the card is safe or not. and i'm wondering if i should call or raise this flop.

can someone please explain if that applies here or not and why, also if you're feeling generous give me another example where it does apply?

any help is greatly appreciated
thanks.

[atnels]

First, I can't say that I would limp here with just 3 callers in front of me.

Personally, I'm going to raise this on the flop. The board is totally drawless. What cards don't you want to see? Most likely another J kills your hand, but beyond that, you really have no way of knowing. An 8 could fall on the turn, giving someone w/J8 a higher 2-pair; who knows. Get your bets in now.

Worst case scenario is you smooth call and close the action (say BB folds). A brick hits the turn, EP bets again, and it's folded to you. If you raise, EP probably calls and check/calls the river UI: you net +1 BB from the turn raise. Compare this to raising the flop, which nets you 1.5 more BB if all 3 call. If the EP bettor is feeling frisky with his TPdK, and one of the callers also has a J, you might get even more bets into the pot.

[@bsolute_luck]

reread the SSH section you're refering to regarding the TT "Two Overpair Hands" on page 187. this is a different situation.

#1: there was a flush draw on the board
#2: you had only a single pair


the decision in the hand you referenced talks about the increase of pot equity from flop to turn. in this hand, the change in equity is much less likely. reraise for value here.

[atnels]

Regarding your second question, I assume you mean raising vs. betting. A good example is when you are in LP with something like TPTK against a flush/straight board (say you have A9s [not spades] in LP and the board is 789 with 2 spades), there is a bet from EP, and there are like 6 callers in front of you. Raising won't do anything for you, because anyone with an OESD or 4-flush is more than happy to put bets into this pot. Calling is probably the best play, and you can raise the turn if the card and action allow.

[JackThree]

[ QUOTE ]
in this hand, the change in equity is much less likely. reraise for value here.

[/ QUOTE ]

how come?

[JackThree]

[ QUOTE ]
Regarding your second question, I assume you mean raising vs. betting. A good example is when you are in LP with something like TPTK against a flush/straight board (say you have A9s [not spades] in LP and the board is 789 with 2 spades), there is a bet from EP, and there are like 6 callers in front of you. Raising won't do anything for you, because anyone with an OESD or 4-flush is more than happy to put bets into this pot. Calling is probably the best play, and you can raise the turn if the card and action allow.

[/ QUOTE ]

ah yes, this is clear, thank you /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[einbert]

First of all, I think the preflop limp is good and one you guys should be making regularly.

About the hand in comparison to SSHE, well basically this is a totally different hand.

In SSHE, you had a TT hand with a very coordinated flop. This flop J64r isn't one you should really be worried about at all, it's a very safe flop for your hand. An ace or a jack is all you really don't want to see (and really only a jack is for sure awful for your hand).

Since the limpers have already put money into the pot, they aren't going to fold for one more. And the turn won't really change the value of your hand, but the increased bet size might very well influence those limpers to folding whent hey would have been perfectly willing to give you action on the flop. So build the pot now and tie them to the hand, this will make them more likely to call big bets later since the pot will be much larger.

[atnels]

Since the flop is drawless: the only card that drastically changes your hand's value (as far as you know) is another J.

[JackThree]

hmmmmm okay i think i am starting to see why my fear of being vulnerable is unjustified

edit: i understood that section of sshe to mean "if you think your hand is vulnerable, wait for the turn"

is this correct/incorrect?
i don't really care about the specific hand that was in SSHE

[einbert]

Wait for the turn when both:

-Your hand's equity changes greatly on a turn blank (the board is very coordinated and the pot is multiway)
-You can't effectively protect your hand on the flop, but you probably will be able to do so on the turn.

[JackThree]

[ QUOTE ]
Wait for the turn when both:

-Your hand's equity changes greatly on a turn blank (the board is very coordinated and the pot is multiway)
-You can't effectively protect your hand on the flop, but you probably will be able to do so on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok that's easy, thanks for the help /images/graemlins/cool.gif <- =o

[KeysrSoze]

I'd raise. The board is rainbow with few straight draws... How are you going to know what card is safe or not (aside from the board pairing jacks)? You're most likely ahead with everyone else drawing to 5 or less outs, raise for value while you can I think. You have alot more equity than if you just had a single middle overpair where any overcard would be a scare card.

Heres a link to an article from a previous 2+2 internet magazine issue with some good tips: Selective Aggression (http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/issue4/anderson0405.html)

One hand from that article, for example:

You're dealt

K/images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ/images/graemlins/heart.gif
in middle position. You open-limp (which is debatable, but again, not relevant), the button limps, the small blind folds and the big blind checks. There are 3 players to the flop for 3.5 small bets. The flop is

K/images/graemlins/spade.gifQ/images/graemlins/spade.gif7/images/graemlins/club.gif
The big blind bets out. What do you do?

You have a relatively strong hand, top pair good kicker, but your hand is still vulnerable. Instead of simply raising here, you could call with the intention of raising a safe card on the turn. The board is coordinated, but the pot is small. Thus, waiting to raise a safe card on the turn is the best play. Why? A flush draw is certainly not folding, and probably not a straight draw either. Moreover, your equity in this hand is probably around 30 percent. Thus, raising appears to be a breakeven play. However, if a card like a 2 comes on the turn, your equity will skyrocket, allowing you to raise when your equity is the highest. However, if a card like T comes, you might very well be beat. Thus, waiting for the turn allows you to lose the minimum if you're behind.

[JackThree]

That makes it even clearer, thanks for the link KeysrSoze =)