What to do when a bad player at the table asks you about his play

[Mens Rea]

In a game at a local casino last night, a guy sits down who obviously has not had much experience playing no-limit. I'd been playing for a while and had a decent stack in front of me, so I guess he assumed I was a good person to ask for advice. This guy was awful. Some of his plays: Calling a significant all-in with AQ on a KJx board. Calling a big bet on a four club board with the 5 of clubs. Calling a river bet with a hand like 45 on a board of KK457. He burned through 8-10 buyins before he went broke. Great guy to have at your table.

My question is this: What do you do when this player turns to you and asks, "Did I play that right?" "You would have called with the straight draw too, right? (Hand 1 above)" "I can't lay down a flush there right? (Hand 2)"

I'm somewhat torn here. While I would never tap the glass and do anything that would stop a player from playing like a fish, it just feels different to look at another player and tell him that there is no way I could lay down the 7 of clubs on a four club board. What do you do here? I couldn't just ignore him? Is it acceptable to actively give the wrong advice or to deliberately mislead a player who obviously has no idea what they are doing. I ended up breaking this guy when he pushed in on a board of 6 7 J 10 when I had a pair and a flush draw. He turned over 3 4 offsuit. Let me know what you guys think.

[Sabrazack]

Just say "Sorry, im here to make money, and teaching you how to play well is clearly not going to help me doing that" and then smile at him /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Mens Rea]

First, that makes me seem unfriendly. Second, I don't want anyone else at the table knowing I'm there to make money. I have a table image that says I'm there to have fun and hang - and I get action because of it. I don't want to lose it to freeze this guy by telling him I can't help him. And don't get me wrong, it made me feel a little bad telling this guy that calling $200 with a gutshot is a play I make all the time, but if he is there the next time, I'll tell him the same thing. I'm just curious if others feel the same way.

[Jazza]

the best i can come up with here is give the response:

"yeah if you want to gamble"

[bernie]

You agree with them.

If pressed further, you just say, 'what do I know? I'm just hoping to hit a hand myself.'

Basically you act somewhat as clueless as they are.

b

[Mens Rea]

This is pretty much the approach I took.

[bobdibble]

"I'm not sure, but you can't win by folding"

[fimbulwinter]

"hahaha, you don't wanna know how badly i would have played that one"

works best if you're barely peeking over a mountain of chips.

fim

[smartalecc5]

[ QUOTE ]
You agree with them.

If pressed further, you just say, 'what do I know? I'm just hoping to hit a hand myself.'

Basically you act somewhat as clueless as they are.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

I concur. Agree with them.

[TheCroShow]

be vague that is what i do. just say "that hand could have gone either way." or "cannot fault you for calling that down, after all, YOU DID have 2 pair (45 on a board of KK45x...lol) Just be vague and if he is pissing away his money, just assume he can afford to lose it. You are there to make money, not to make friends and certainly not to tap the glass.

[SNOWBALL138]

Being honest here would only be "tapping the tank" if you made him feel bad, which would make him not want to play.
There's a difference between making a bad player feel bad when he wins and giving someone an honest answer to their face. It wouldn't hurt you to give him a tip or two. Its not like he's going to suddenly become Phil Ivey or something.

[Petteri]

I agree.

I think best approach is give one or two tips. He might improve his game a bit, but you still have great edge.

It is important to be friendly to your best customers even though that might decline your short-term profits. You should never make fish feel bad. If fish does not enjoy playing he will often simply leave.

[kiddj]

I agree with giving a vague response. However, telling the truth to the person may be fine.

When someone asks me if I would have called to the river with a gutshot draw, I tell them: "Probably not, but it depends.". This is the truth, and it makes them believe that they may have made the right choice even though they lost. I don't tell them that it depends on the size of the pot, my position, who bet, how many people are left to act and how loose they are, if there could be redraws, and how much can I make if I hit. This is not necessary.

This way I am honest, not glass tapping, and friendly all at the same time. You'd be surprised how often this person will fold to you heads up with an equitable hand/draw and/or check check/call the nuts to be "nice" to you.

[JTrout]

"I just go with what I feel is right at the time."
Or,
"you've gotta go with what you feel is right."

[coffeecrazy1]

I agree, and remember: it is important to maintain the impression of being the nicest guy at the table, simply because it will lull the fish to sleep. Besides, most people, even when presented with a minor, random tip cannot put it immediately(or long-term) into practice. How many times did all of us have to lose with KK with an Ace on the board before we learned to let it go? It's the same principle...you won't stop anyone from playing badly simply by giving the truth, though you should not insult their play...just something like, "Hmm...I'm not sure I would have called in that particular spot, but you never know." Be kind, truthful, but ambiguous.

[ripwalk]

I agree with the being vague..

"Hmm, I don't know"

"Hard to say.."

"Not sure what I would have done in that situation"

"Tough call"

Etc.

[flair1239]

Just stick to general responses.

"Yeah, that's a tough one"

"Well, what can you do"

"Happens to everybody"

He is not actually looking to learn, he is asking for vailidation. Give it to him.

[wrto4556]

Its good to talk to people about other stuff so strategy will never even cross their mind(unless they're already thinking players).

Getting asked questions like this sucks, I try hard to avoid it.

[Mens Rea]

"Tough call." or "Tough Beat." This is the response I usually give. I don't feel bad about doing so, and it appears that the majority of you are in the same boat. Good stuff. Thanks for the responses.

[goofball]

I have quite a few standard moron things to say at the table, including the new one i got from The Dude (nothin's funner than runner runner)

among the others:
-any two can win
-i don't see how you could fold there against that guy
-how can you fold a draw to the nuts
-all i know is every time i fold i lose
-sometimes guys are just lucky
-nothiing you can do about that, gotta just call

etc etc etc

[RicktheRuler]

I have had this happen once or twice.

"You gotta go with your gut man, that's what I do." Loud enough for the whole table to hear. It works wonders.

[nycplayer]

I remember reading about one player who would always respond, "If you want lessons, they begin next Tuesday," or something to that effect. Of course they never started *this* Tuesday, always *next* Tuesday.

I think that gets the point across without coming off as too cold-hearted. That is, if you say it with a smile.

[Justin A]

If he's a nice guy and we've been polite to each other all night I'll just tell them what I think. It's not like they're going to gain a sudden understanding of why I would have played it that way.

[A_C_Slater]

Pretend like you weren't paying attention to the hand and the ask him for advice later on.

[Derek in NYC]

"Queens are very strong tonight."

[mockingbird]

I read all the responses and the concessus seems to be - be friendly and nice but vague and misleading and certainly dont give him an honest answer.

I have never played live but I dont think I would feel good about that especially if he was really a nice guy and was sincerely asking you for help.

I think I might have tried to find him away from the table and dealt with him in the same sincere honest friendly way he had dealt with me. I think I would have, casually, told him that some of his plays were not the best and suggested, again casually, a book for him to read. I also would have told him that I really cant answer strategy questions for him at the table. And wished him luck.

Like others have said, he's not going to become a winning player overnight, even if he does start to study and improves somewhat.

If you winning is dependent upon lying to and [censored] over nice people then quit.

Just my opinion, but then again I'm a newbie.

Bleeding Heart Liberal

[xniNja]

You know... I have no problem saying "You called with thaaaat? or nahhh I wouldn't call that" or something more true than feigning ignorance or lying to him. It never seems to result in better play from them. I think I'd rather they had some miniscule basic understanding of the game- it makes them easier to predict and maneuver.

[21times20]

are you guys such poor poker players that you don't think you can win consistently without trying to make terrible players worse than they already are?

or are you guys such poor members of the human race that lying to someone's face who innocently asks you for advice doesn't affect your sense of personal integrity in the least?

i mean it's possible that keeping super-secret knowledge such as "gutshot draws don't hit that often" hidden from someone might have a positive expected value in the long run, but you're probably going to have to lie to a whole bunch of people to see any significant results from this tactic and i don't really see it as a sure thing even with a large enough sample size, just because someone is an inexperienced poker player doesn't mean they are an idiot or has no ability to discern between a lie and the truth, i could easily see someone suspecting you weren't being wholly honest with them depending on what and how you answered, especially if your real-life social skills are at the level that your attitude towards lying to others and the fact that you are posting on an internet forum seems to indicate, having a donating player suspect, even in the slightest, that you are much more concerned with fleecing him for every penny you can than you are with even appearing to be a stand-up guy cannot be +ev i don't think

and what happens if you do end up a few hands later in the only situation that lying is gonna make you any money on, say you make a hand and get him to call large bets down to the river with a gutshot after you just told him that's what he should do? you don't think a reasonably intelligent person might actually ponder the situation for a moment or two if he just lost $200 to you by following the advice you gave him?

and like someone said, you giving a terrible player honest and helpful advice on poker is not going to instantly turn them into phil ivey, a very high percentage of the time a player this bad at a no limit table will be playing until they get busted or tired of reloading, the only thing you should be concerned with is increasing the chances that you are the player to bust them and that they stay at your table as long as possible. do any of you morally bankrupt posters really think lying to someone's face is going to make either of these things more likely?

i think one of the greatest things about poker is that you can PLAY as absolutely cutthroat as you can manage without doing anything the slightest bit wrong from a moral perspective.

[Little Fishy]

just say something vague like "it's all in the cards" or "It's just the way they fall" or "beats happen to everyone"

he'll try and figure out what you're talking about and it should stall him and buy you some time, when he comes back for mor advice do the same thing again

[KeysrSoze]

Make up a bunch of technobabble. Tell him "Man thats a connundrum. Your inverse replied odds were really good because although you were a 4 by 2.343 dog to hit it, you'd have a powerboat hand that would be unbeatable if you did!." Then recommend him read Bill Fillmaff's Secret System.

[Burno]

I'd probably say,

"I can't answer that. Then you'll know exactly how I play."

[Mens Rea]

[ QUOTE ]
are you guys such poor poker players that you don't think you can win consistently without trying to make terrible players worse than they already are?

or are you guys such poor members of the human race that lying to someone's face who innocently asks you for advice doesn't affect your sense of personal integrity in the least?

[/ QUOTE ]

My response to this would be to ask why I should be responsible for educating, or even acting kindly toward this player. I would also ask you what limits you play. If I was playing some $100 max buy-in game, I could understand, and perhaps agree with what you are saying here. However, as a student, the money that this poor fool has brought to the poker table will hopefully become my tuition payment. According to you, I should give him truthful advice because he has not taken the time to read the books or make an effort to improve his game? I am not a professional, nor do I aspire to be, but I hardly look at the poker games in which I play as a sporting, friendly, or brotherly. I guess, when it comes down to it, I will do whatever is necessary, within the rules and without shooting angles, to win.

[Nalapoint1]

I would respond with "how do you think I am getting these chips?"

[wrto4556]

[ QUOTE ]
or are you guys such poor members of the human race that lying to someone's face who innocently asks you for advice doesn't affect your sense of personal integrity in the least?

[/ QUOTE ]

That one.

[LetYouDown]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
or are you guys such poor members of the human race that lying to someone's face who innocently asks you for advice doesn't affect your sense of personal integrity in the least?

[/ QUOTE ]

That one.

[/ QUOTE ]
nh

[Schwags]

give him advice =D we were put on the earth to share knowledge, forget about money once in a while

[Nigel]

[ QUOTE ]
are you guys such poor poker players that you don't think you can win consistently without trying to make terrible players worse than they already are?

or are you guys such poor members of the human race that lying to someone's face who innocently asks you for advice doesn't affect your sense of personal integrity in the least?

i mean it's possible that keeping super-secret knowledge such as "gutshot draws don't hit that often" hidden from someone might have a positive expected value in the long run, but you're probably going to have to lie to a whole bunch of people to see any significant results from this tactic and i don't really see it as a sure thing even with a large enough sample size, just because someone is an inexperienced poker player doesn't mean they are an idiot or has no ability to discern between a lie and the truth, i could easily see someone suspecting you weren't being wholly honest with them depending on what and how you answered, especially if your real-life social skills are at the level that your attitude towards lying to others

[Nigel]

[ QUOTE ]
are you guys such poor poker players that you don't think you can win consistently without trying to make terrible players worse than they already are?

or are you guys such poor members of the human race that lying to someone's face who innocently asks you for advice doesn't affect your sense of personal integrity in the least?

i mean it's possible that keeping super-secret knowledge such as "gutshot draws don't hit that often" hidden from someone might have a positive expected value in the long run, but you're probably going to have to lie to a whole bunch of people to see any significant results from this tactic and i don't really see it as a sure thing even with a large enough sample size, just because someone is an inexperienced poker player doesn't mean they are an idiot or has no ability to discern between a lie and the truth, i could easily see someone suspecting you weren't being wholly honest with them depending on what and how you answered, especially if your real-life social skills are at the level that your attitude towards lying to others and the fact that you are posting on an internet forum seems to indicate, having a donating player suspect, even in the slightest, that you are much more concerned with fleecing him for every penny you can than you are with even appearing to be a stand-up guy cannot be +ev i don't think

and what happens if you do end up a few hands later in the only situation that lying is gonna make you any money on, say you make a hand and get him to call large bets down to the river with a gutshot after you just told him that's what he should do? you don't think a reasonably intelligent person might actually ponder the situation for a moment or two if he just lost $200 to you by following the advice you gave him?

and like someone said, you giving a terrible player honest and helpful advice on poker is not going to instantly turn them into phil ivey, a very high percentage of the time a player this bad at a no limit table will be playing until they get busted or tired of reloading, the only thing you should be concerned with is increasing the chances that you are the player to bust them and that they stay at your table as long as possible. do any of you morally bankrupt posters really think lying to someone's face is going to make either of these things more likely?

i think one of the greatest things about poker is that you can PLAY as absolutely cutthroat as you can manage without doing anything the slightest bit wrong from a moral perspective.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great post. I quoted it some some of these guys can read it again. It says a lot.

Nigel

[creedofhubris]

I would be nice and tell him something useful.

"Well, I might not call (with a gutshot) because I don't like to gamble that much."

"I get worried when my flush is only five high."

Make yourself seem like a nervous nelly; most fish don't want to be seen as nervous, so they'll ignore your advice anyway. And you've warned them, so your conscience is clear.

I mean, don't make these statements unprompted, but if he asks, I think there's no harm in giving general timid advice.

BTW, I like shaking my head and saying "tough beat" in general after someone makes a terrible call and loses.

[Mens Rea]

[ QUOTE ]


BTW, I like shaking my head and saying "tough beat" in general after someone makes a terrible call and loses.

[/ QUOTE ]

Love doing that. And by the way, I am always nice, I just agree with them. I was just wondering if any of you did the same thing, and if you wver felt bad for lying to their faces.

I think the argument that those who do are bad people is assinine.

[mockingbird]

[ QUOTE ]
My response to this would be to ask why I should be responsible for educating, or even acting kindly toward this player. I would also ask you what limits you play. If I was playing some $100 max buy-in game, I could understand, and perhaps agree with what you are saying here. However, as a student, the money that this poor fool has brought to the poker table will hopefully become my tuition payment. According to you, I should give him truthful advice because he has not taken the time to read the books or make an effort to improve his game? I am not a professional, nor do I aspire to be, but I hardly look at the poker games in which I play as a sporting, friendly, or brotherly. I guess, when it comes down to it, I will do whatever is necessary, within the rules and without shooting angles, to win.


[/ QUOTE ]

We are all responsible for acting kindly whenever possible. If you don't instinctively know that then I think there is a piece of the normal human psyche that you are missing.

You don't sound like a very nice guy. And I don't believe that nice guys finish last.

[TomBrooks]

There is usually more than one correct way to play a hand. I would probably give him some suggestion, but advise him that different people would play it differently.

By the way, I would never fold 45 on a KK457 board and I might be raising with it; and I will always call with any club on a four club board for one bet on the river.

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
"Queens are very strong tonight."

[/ QUOTE ]
Stuff like this might be OK to share if your're in a generous mood. For instance, I got on a table the other day where the first couple of Qx hands I folded would have made monsters. I started playing all Q x>5 and did super with them. Would I share this with someone else while it was happening? Maybe, if he was a nice guy. I would be unlikely or possibly even unable to clue him in to when the QXs cooled off. It might take me a while to figure that out myself and it's not an exact science. This kind of stuff doesn't happen too often anyway, so it's probably not going to help anyone much anyway.

[Tommy Angelo]

The act of him asking you those questions forces you to lie in some way. In that sense, he attacked you. It is an inadvertant attack, but an invasion none nonetheless. You owe him nothing. No honesty, no answer, nothing.

"My question is this: What do you do when this player turns to you and asks, "Did I play that right?" "You would have called with the straight draw too, right? (Hand 1 above)" "I can't lay down a flush there right? (Hand 2)"

For those times when silence won't do, I deflect and end the conversation by saying, "That's a tough one."

Tommy

[Mens Rea]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My response to this would be to ask why I should be responsible for educating, or even acting kindly toward this player. I would also ask you what limits you play. If I was playing some $100 max buy-in game, I could understand, and perhaps agree with what you are saying here. However, as a student, the money that this poor fool has brought to the poker table will hopefully become my tuition payment. According to you, I should give him truthful advice because he has not taken the time to read the books or make an effort to improve his game? I am not a professional, nor do I aspire to be, but I hardly look at the poker games in which I play as a sporting, friendly, or brotherly. I guess, when it comes down to it, I will do whatever is necessary, within the rules and without shooting angles, to win.


[/ QUOTE ]

We are all responsible for acting kindly whenever possible. If you don't instinctively know that then I think there is a piece of the normal human psyche that you are missing.

You don't sound like a very nice guy. And I don't believe that nice guys finish last.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe there is a very large difference between acting kindly and bestowing advice that could potentially cost me a part of the advantage I have worked hard to acquire. Can you explain to me what is wrong with acting nicely, making this person comfortable, helping him enjoy his time - but at the same time refraining from giving him any useful advice? For example, you are playing in a highly competitive golf match for money. You notice your opponent has a swing flaw that he could easily correct. He asks, "Why am I slicing the ball?" What's wrong with telling him, "I'm not sure, sometimes the same thing happens to me?"

And you're right - I'm not a nice guy at the poker table. And I make no apologies for that fact.

[kiddj]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Queens are very strong tonight."

[/ QUOTE ]
Stuff like this might be OK to share if your're in a generous mood. For instance, I got on a table the other day where the first couple of Qx hands I folded would have made monsters. I started playing all Q x>5 and did super with them. Would I share this with someone else while it was happening? Maybe, if he was a nice guy. I would be unlikely or possibly even unable to clue him in to when the QXs cooled off. It might take me a while to figure that out myself and it's not an exact science. This kind of stuff doesn't happen too often anyway, so it's probably not going to help anyone much anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]
Is this sarcasm or do you really play hands because they are "hot"?

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I got on a table the other day where the first couple of Qx hands I folded would have made monsters. I started playing all Q x>5 and did super with them.

[/ QUOTE ]Is this sarcasm or do you really play hands because they are "hot"?

[/ QUOTE ]
Hi dj,
I was serious, that really did happen the other day; but it's very rare that I've been able to notice a streak and take advantage of it while it was still happening. Therefore, the chance that someone would ask my advice while I was playing a streak are tiny, but I could tell them about it post facto as an anecdote, which while not of much real help, is at least honest and makes for pleasant conversation.

[21times20]

[ QUOTE ]

if you wver felt bad for lying to their faces.

I think the argument that those who do are bad people is assinine.

[/ QUOTE ]

my apologies, i am completely wrong here, obviously lying to people's faces is a sign of superior character if there ever was one

[21times20]

[ QUOTE ]
The act of him asking you those questions forces you to lie in some way. In that sense, he attacked you. It is an inadvertant attack, but an invasion none nonetheless. You owe him nothing. No honesty, no answer, nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't see how this is even close to being the case, we are not talking about nuclear state secrets here, you haven't signed any sort of non-disclosure agreement, this guy is not a trial lawyer grilling you on the the stand backing you into a corner with a cleverly premeditated series of questions

aren't we talking about information that is pretty much considered common knowledge among any group of semi-serious poker players? i mean i really thought this information was readily available to anyone in a wide variety of media, whether they preferred to watch a dvd, read a book, or browse a web page on their computer. what exactly is the point of being so secretive about information that is anything but secret?

again i find myself coming to the conclusion people who have this kind of attitude are actually just very poor poker players who in most cases don't have any edge over their competition at all when they sit down at a poker table. so when they see the rare player who is actually worse than they are, they can't bear the thought of them possibly improving in the slightest, lest they be forced to return once again to their usual position in the table heirarchy, no matter how unlikely it is that a helpful tip or two will actually change the way someone plays over the next couple of hours

this is pretty much the only explanation i can come up with for the opinions of many of these posters, especially since i haven't seen one person who disagrees with my post address my thoughts on whether or not there is actually any positive expected value in lying, regardless of any moral implications. in case im wrong i would like to ask if anyone who feels the correct move here is to lie, actually wins on a consistent basis, even a moderate amount? i would be surprised if any of you actually put up consecutive winning months, much less average $500 a month or more in winnings

my personal guess is that the best performers among you are close to break even players with the majority of their poker income being derived from deposit bonuses, if said poker income exists at all

[Mens Rea]

[ QUOTE ]
aren't we talking about information that is pretty much considered common knowledge among any group of semi-serious poker players? i mean i really thought this information was readily available to anyone in a wide variety of media, whether they preferred to watch a dvd, read a book, or browse a web page on their computer. what exactly is the point of being so secretive about information that is anything but secret?


[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. So why is it my responsibility to clue this guy in? I'm not feeding him straight lies, I'm merely subtly reinforcing his incorrect beliefs. He can't buy the books and read them, like I and many others here did? Acting this way toward an opponent is almost certainly +EV. At the very least, I can expect him to play this way in the future, in pots that I am involved in, and can react accordingly.

To me, clueing this player in to his mistakes is the same as berating a bad player. Several 2+2 books have talked about this, and it is the general consensus that it is not a smart move to do anything that will cause a bad player to play better, or a non-thinking player to start thinking.

And not that it is any of your business, but I have been beating this game for thousands a month for the past two years. I am not a professional, nor do I desire to be, even assuming I have the talent, which I do not. However, I don't see how the skill or profitability of a player is even relevant here. Even if someone is a losing player, I fail to see how they would benefit by helping a player that is even worse.

Finally, I still think the argument that any tendency or behavior one exhibits at the poker table is in any way a reflection of their morality or 'goodness' as a person in life is a rediculous one. Look at Barry Greenstein. Obviously, a pretty decent human being. Do you think he stops to help the fishes he runs into at the early tables of his tournaments? Part of what makes poker fun for me is its competitive nature, and the fact that I am relying on no one but myself. Next time someone asks me whether they should invest in a certain stock or whether they have a case, I'll answer them with all honesty and respect. If they asked me if I would have called a preflop allin with A9o, I'll tell them that its always tough to lay down an ace.

[Nigel]

This is just ridiculous. Look at how many people here at 2+2 help educate other players. How does this fit in with your thinking?

The first time I ever played hold'em was in Vegas at the Stardust (I think that's the name of the casino, can't remember). I sucked. Had no idea what I was doing. Both the guy on my left and right tried to help me out. Both nice guys. I still lost about $1000. Had one of those guys not been helpful to me to make the game even somewhat playable, I would have been out of there -- with my money in my pocket instead of theirs.

The guy above who made the comment about being surprised if any of you win I think is dead on. I'm amazed at how many people who play this game just don't seem like decent human beings.

Sorry to be so harsh.

Nigel

[Mens Rea]

You really don't see any difference between helping people here in a discussion forum and actually helping bad players during a game?

Another sports analogy - Pro golfers give each other tips and other help all the time. You'll never see it happen during a tournament.

Let me be clear on something else. This same guy wants to have a beer after we play and talk about poker, I'll answer every question I can to the best of my ability. Same goes for anyone. Not during the game though.

Help me out with something else. I can understand how I might seem greedy, selfish, etc. even though I disagree. But what does a person refusing to help a bad player during a game have to do with winning or losing in general. I don't see the connection.

[Buck_65]

You have no obligations at the poker table. Everyone lies. You can, too. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[21times20]

i just don't see how any player with the confidence that comes with consistent winning really thinks that an offhand comment about how to play a particular hand affects their ability to win money from a player who doesn't know what they're doing

[Jstyal]

[ QUOTE ]
i just don't see how any player with the confidence that comes with consistent winning really thinks that an offhand comment about how to play a particular hand affects their ability to win money from a player who doesn't know what they're doing

[/ QUOTE ]

Players that consistently win and therefore gain confindence in their play is a result for the most part of the inability of other players to play well. Giving advice to clueless players will potentially decrease your edge at the table, hence why I do not reccomend it.

[CurryLover]

I was playing in a big pot limit game two nights ago. One of the players was ok at Texas, Omaha and other high only games but did not really know how to play the high/low games. One of the better players in the game was sitting next to him and, when asked for advice after a hand, told him, "the secret to the high low games is to only play for high and let the low look after itself."

To me, this shows that he is a total c**t. Whilst there is nothing wrong with being evasive and not giving a response, deliberately giving totally incorrect advice is bang out of order in my opinion. Obviously this example is an extreme one, but the same principle applies if you mkae crap comments about it all being luck anyway or any two cards can win when you do not really think that way yourself.

From reading all the responses this viewpoint is in a minority amongst poker players it seems. However, I bet if you asked the same question to a world class player then he would say that if he was going to respond to the question then his advice would not be deliberately misleading. In fact, if a top player bothers giving you advice it may even have something of substance in it. It's about having class.

But even you hustler types might end up agreeing if you look at it from a different perspective. Assume you are the best player in the game. There is a complete fish present. Every player on the table is more or less equally likely to take his money. If you give him a little bit of reasonable advice when he asks then you will benefit in several ways:

1) He may hang on to his money for an extra half hour, have more fun, and so be more likely to come back tomorrow.

2) He may decide to come back tomorrow because of the friendly atmosphere at the table - he will appreciate people giving him honest advice.

3) Most importantly, you may improve his game enough that some of the other fish are less likely to get his money before you are able to. Since you are the strongest player at the table, you will reckon to get his money eventually provided it has not been got already. I know you could say that you will get his money anyway, even if it's indirectly - by winning it from the fish who won it from him. Even so, you must get my point.

Yes, you are there to make money. Yes, it is silly to tap the glass and go out of your way to educate the fish. But, you're not there to be a total c**t.

By the way, those of you who offered suggestions of glib comments that you would make - well you're just totally lacking in class. Where is the EV in telling a fish that "lessons start next Tuesday" or "that's why I'm winning all your money"? It will not make you more popular, more rich, or more respected. It may make you slightly more likely to get beaten up.

[LuvDemNutz]

I think Nigel and 21times20 are the only two people in this thread that have a f*ing clue.

[LuvDemNutz]

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To me, clueing this player in to his mistakes is the same as berating a bad player.

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I fail to see how these two things are the same - can you elaborate?

[Mens Rea]

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To me, clueing this player in to his mistakes is the same as berating a bad player.

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I fail to see how these two things are the same - can you elaborate?

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I can certainly try. While berating a bad player is the worse of the two, mainly because he is more likely to leave the game, both castigating someone for playing badly and giving quality advice to a bad player both potentially motivate or help that player to focus, think more critically, and play better in general.

Obviously, this does not always hold true. Sometimes ripping a fish after a lucky catch makes them play worse. My point here is that there is nothing to be gained by helping someone with their game while they are playing. I'd never give someone the kind of advice like "let the low take care of itself." However, I think I'd answer the same question with something along the lines of, "Yeah, I don't really get this game either." To me, there is a big difference between deliberately misleading someone and refusing to help them as best you could.

[DaveKForty7]

"You're askin' the wrong guy buddy"