Betting a nut low on the come

[GooperMC]

Hypothetical situation: You are OTB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Pre-flop:
2 limpers to you, you call, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop 5 players (5SB): 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif
Checks to you. How often do you bet here? What variables do you consider when you are deciding?

Pros that I see to betting
- If it is a passive table you may get to see a free turn if you miss
- Puts you in control of the hand
- Deception. Most bad players (the ones that make you money) don’t think about betting on the come.
- Gives you a very tiny amount more equity in the high 1/2.

Cons to betting
- Open your self up to a CR
- You need somewhere between 5 and 6 callers to break even on the bet itself. That means you are going to lose money unless the other considerations outweigh the amount you lose.
- May push out worse low draws (A3, 23) that will pay you off.

In the past I have been betting here more often then I have been checking but I am beginning to think that is a mistake. What do you guys think?

[Alchemist]

A lot of times it's a tossup to me. If it's checked to me or I'm in early position sometimes I like to bet and see what people do. I think a lot depends on how coordinated the flop is. If it's something like 48K rainbow I think a bet will get rid of a lot of high-oriented hands and worse lows. I think it adds a little deception to your own hand with people thinking you have a set, etc.

It's worthwhile if you can get rid of hands like A3 or 23 especially if the river brings a 2. At any rate I think it's a decent value bet because if the turn brings a good low like a 7, you can bet again and force people to make a decision and you can get and idea of who's high and low (and hopefully another A2 won't raise you).

[akaLogic]

Pros:

fold, fold, fold, fold

[mosquito]

Would not consider betting on come with 'no' hope
of high and a dry low that may be counterfeited.

Some loose/passive games it is right to build the
pot with a low draw that cannot be counterfeited,
especially if there are even a few outs for high.

[GooperMC]

I hope you are not telling me to fold /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Assuming that you are saying I get fold equity out of betting I agree and disagree. I have almost never see a flop bet take down the pot there, but it can setup a drive bluff on the turn and river that could take down the pot. That is what I meant by "Puts you in control of the hand." I guess I should have been more explicit.

[mosquito]

[ QUOTE ]
I hope you are not telling me to fold /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Assuming that you are saying I get fold equity out of betting I agree and disagree. I have almost never see a flop bet take down the pot there, but it can setup a drive bluff on the turn and river that could take down the pot. That is what I meant by "Puts you in control of the hand." I guess I should have been more explicit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yah, it could. I have been burned by this in LP games,
it takes a very scary board for the bluff to work. And
then part of the time you get check raised by the nuts.
Not that you pay it off.

Misread the OP first time, betting the flop is fine when:

1. everyone calls, no one raises.
2. they check to you an the turn.

There are some tables like that, but not many.

[MikeR]

Maybe it's because I play the lowest limits (.50/1.00), but just betting out doesn't really get anyone to fold. Almost everyone who's in the hand wants to see the turn. If someone bets before me, I don't raise, because a raise will scare off players for some reason, I just call. After reading that there's a slightly better than 50/50 chance of winning the nut low in another post I read, I would think that it would be profitable in the long run. Basically I'm just making sure there's something in the pot that everyone will match, and hoping I will take some of those chips by the end.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
Checks to you. How often do you bet here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Gooper - I suppose you realize before the flop that you're not going to scoop very much with this hand. Thus you don't have a very good starting hand, despite having the ace-deuce two-card combination.

Then after this flop, you figure to make the nut-low 15/45 on the turn. In other words, you'll miss twice as much as you'll make the nut low on the turn. (When you don't make the nut low on the turn, you'll have another chance on the river). When you do make the nut low on the turn, you'll get counterfeited on the river 6/44 - and you'll have to fold to a bet when that hapens. When you don't get counterfeited on the river, you'll get quartered, sixthed, or eighthed roughly 2/5.

Thus you've flopped a nut low draw but if you do make low on the turn, you have no decent counterfeit protection - and if you're not counterfeited on the river, you're very vulnerable to having to share the low with one or more opponents. If you don't make low on the turn you'll be stuck in the pot, drawing again on the river.

This is far from ideal.

But do I bet here? Usually yes, I would bet here.

[ QUOTE ]
What variables do you consider when you are deciding?

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly, there's not much deciding. I'm almost surely going to bet this. If I'm not reasonably sure what to do, mainly I consider how the bet will affect my opponents. I'm betting because of the effect I think my bet will generally have on my opponents. At the level I play, they would not usually all stay when I bet this flop (although they probably wouldn't all fold either). But by betting here, I increase my chances to scoop (or three-quarter) on the river.

[ QUOTE ]
In the past I have been betting here more often then I have been checking but I am beginning to think that is a mistake. What do you guys think?

[/ QUOTE ]

In general, I think you bet here. You're not getting odds for this bet but you bet because of the effect the bet will have on your opponents. Your bet here makes it a bit more difficult for your opponents to play correctly on this betting round and the next - and maybe on future hands.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[chaos]

With a typical hand, I bet here when it is checked to me in late position.

If the low comes on the turn, I will continue betting. My opponents will have to figure out whether I am betting a high hand like a set, or bet the low on the come and got there. When your opponenets have to make decisions, you give them the chance to make mistakes.

A typical low hand for me will be coordinated. Thus I will have some counterfeit protection. Possibly a backdoor flush draw and a backdoor high. I may check if I only have a naked A2 with no counterfeit protection or chance for high.