Give them another chance to fold?

[Fishlips_Jones]

I get KK or AA push preflop and get called by one or more players of various stack sizes. They either show me a smaller pair, big unsuited ace, or suited ace. I LOVE this action, RIGHT?

So far in about two dozen tournaments, I eventually get busted out before the money when the above scenario happens (rivered most of the time).

So my question is this: in the long run, would I be better of making a standard raise preflop and then moving in on the flop so as to give them another chance to fold?


Thanks

Fishlips

[Fishlips_Jones]

Either the answer is obvious and I'm missing it, OR it's debatable. I feel, in a tournament setting, it is better to make a big raise (but not all in) preflop and then make a move on the flop.

Fishlips

[Emoney04]

I can definitely relate to this. There is no one way to play this. Analyze your opponents and make the best decision from there. If youre getting all in with a 2 to 1 or 5-1 advantage like you are then keep playing the same way. You cant ask for more. Just keep playing.

[ZBTHorton]

Um. Well. It all depends on the situation.

If you have 6BB, push PF.
If your sure your getting a caller, push PF.

All the rest of the time, I wouldn't advise pushing PF. If you post a situation or hand, it will be alot easier to help you.

[Fishlips_Jones]

The latest situation occurred in the middle of a Party freefoll no limit holdem tourney.

Blinds were 200/400. 10 players.
I was second biggest stack with about 11,000.
I pick up KK in the Cutoff.
UTG+1 (chip leader with about 13000) makes it 3000 to go.
Folded to me.
I push all in.
Folded to UTG+1 who calls.

UTG+1 turns over AQ suited in clubs. I have the K of clubs.

Flop comes rags with two clubs, he hits the flush on the river. Boo Hoo.

Perhaps if I just called his preflop raise, and then moved in on the flop, he would have released.

I'd rather win 30% of my stack with a 0% chance of busting out of a tourney, than to double up with a 20% chance of busting out.


Fishlips

[utmt40]

I dont like that move when you have that kind of stack. Call his raise maybe even re raise a good ammount. The push after the flop. Make him make the bad play of calling on a draw because your going to win that more times than none. Also, if you want to submit a bad beat try www.riveredagain.com (http://www.riveredagain.com)

[Fishlips_Jones]

I don't necessarily consider this a 'bad beat'. I think it's more a tactical issue. Winning the pot is the current goal, not busting out has to be a goal also.

I don't necessarily want him calling an all-in bet on the flop. I don't want him calling my all-in bet preflop either. The pot is big enough that I'd like to win it without a showdown; which is why I pushed preflop. Or should I be wanting those calls? It seems like there's a balancing act between surviving, and accumulating chips. Where's the line I have to walk?

Fishlips

[mlagoo]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont like that move when you have that kind of stack. Call his raise maybe even re raise a good ammount. The push after the flop. Make him make the bad play of calling on a draw because your going to win that more times than none. Also, if you want to submit a bad beat try www.riveredagain.com (http://www.riveredagain.com)

[/ QUOTE ]

i cant believe they have a website set up for bad beats. we should make that a sticky in every forum.

[DewMan]

You always want to get your chips in the pot when you are ahead. That is the goal. If you are a 60% or better favorite and can get a call, then do it. If you are drawn out on, that is just bad luck. In the example you gave, you are way ahead of pretty much any hand. The only hand you really have to worry about is AA. I say you made the right call, just the cards didn't work out for you in the end. Anytime I get a 60% or more odds, I am going to do whatever I can to get my chips in the pot with a call. Others may play tighter, thats not my style.

[Rduke55]

You want them to do this.
If you can get all the money in heads up PF w/ AA or KK then you should be happy.
You do NOT want to give him another opportunity to fold. That's ridiculous.
It's a bad beat. It's OK. They happen.

[Fishlips_Jones]

There's got to be a better way.

If you play well enough to get all your chips in as an 80% favotite, and you do that the 6-8 times to get into the money; then you will only make the money about 21% of the time. 21% seems low to me, but then I have not seen any numbers on how often the greats make it into the money.

Fishlips

[nath]

[ QUOTE ]
There's got to be a better way.

If you play well enough to get all your chips in as an 80% favotite, and you do that the 6-8 times to get into the money; then you will only make the money about 21% of the time. 21% seems low to me, but then I have not seen any numbers on how often the greats make it into the money.

Fishlips

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, part of it is that between all of the ones you are winning and your picking up pots along the way and other such things, you can survive if you get sucked out on once or twice, which is important, because you will.

[Big_Jim]

In the example you give, I think UTG+1 pushes on that flop, and now you're less of a favorite than you were before the flop.

If he is going to call off almost all of his chips with AQ, then you should push with AA or KK every single time after he raises, you don't WANT him to be able to get off the hand. What about the times when he would call with TT (which I assume this player would) and a J or a Q hits the board? What about the times he's raising with a suited connector and busts you with a lucky flop because you didn't push him off of it? What about the times he raises with AQ and he hits his A on the flop?

If you can get your money in as a 2-1 favorite. Do it. Not pushing here against this player is insanity.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
The latest situation occurred in the middle of a Party freefoll

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a freeroll. You're not going to get anyone to fold by definition.

Also, not that the math is right (because you can lose via suckout and still have chips as long as you're a big stack), but if it was, a 21% chance to make the money as a gigantic stack in a tournament that pays 10% of the field is a very good thing.

[EvanCharuk]

[ QUOTE ]

Perhaps if I just called his preflop raise, and then moved in on the flop, he would have released.


[/ QUOTE ]

In a Party freeroll? I would find it highly unlikely most players in the Party freeroll would ever fold to this flop with two clubs.