Hello! My brother's keeper?? Hmmm...Ethical cases...

[SittingBull]

Case1
There are 3 opponents in a tournament.
One oppnent is very short-stacked. The other two have relatively large stacks.
One player decides to ante out the short stack player who has a good second best hand to the third opponet.
The player believes the 3rd opponent has a monster hand. Hence,he re-raises several times to squeeze the short-stack opponet out of the game . His plan will ensure a 2 place money win.
Is he playing unethically??
His ONLY goal is to make as much money as possible.

Case 2
In my stud game ,I noticed that an opponent had a Str8 to the k but both the dealer and player did not see the Str8.
The other opponent took it down with a set of 9's.

Was I ethically responsible for speaking up??
Note: If I had misread my hand,I certainly would have appreciated someone speaking out loud!

H /forums/images/icons/confused.gif appy pokering,
Sitting Bull

[pufferfish]

Case1

Is he playing unethically??

Nope, just the way it goes.

Case 2

Was I ethically responsible for speaking up??

This is tougher. While it's not a player responsibility to do this (right?), I would side with it being an ethical one.

pf

[Riverboat Cap'n]

This sort of situation has always bothered me somewhat. I think in the first case there is no moral issue whatsoever. I think that is proper play strategy. In the second case, I would say that although the game is Player vs. Player, each contestant still has a moral responsibility to keep the game on that level. However, if the player couldn't beat 9's and played without seeing their own straight, they should sit out a while. <P>
One moral issue I have problems with is when an opponent reveals their hand without knowing it. I was sitting next to Grandma (not my actual grandmother) in one hand at a very loose table.. I had QJo and was considering playing it when I looked around the table and saw she had KK in the hole. I folded and she ruined people's day on that hand. In future hands I noticed that she reliably held her hand so that I could see what she was holding.. I generally avoided looking because I hadn't the time to work the ethics of it out, and still I am not sure. Also, I noticed a friend of mine making the same mistake, I told him he needed to take a walk with me, he refused, so I let him make the mistake until such time as he needed to take a walk for himself. Ethics at the poker table changes, but the implicit contract grows stronger, IMHO.

[Tyler Durden]

Poker is a predatory game--let's not forget that. I've sat next to many a grandma and grandpa that didn't do a good job of looking at their hole cards without letting anyone else see. I then attempted to look at each chance I got. Maybe it's unethical, but when you play poker, you've got to know what you're getting into. It's a game for con men, too.

[pufferfish]

I've been thinking about Case 2 and want to change my answer.

I no longer think that there is a general ethical responsibility to tell another player what his hand is. I think it depends upon whether or not you expect the same behavior from others.

You said that you would appreciate others who would do it for you. In your case and mine (I feel the same way) I believe you/we have an ethical responsibility.

Take the case of the pro who needs no such help. He may not say anything for a variety of reasons. Not wanting to "teach" or maybe for strategic reasons. The person with the set is a juicy fish that he doesn't want to get out of the mood because a hand was taken away from him.

For this pro, I think no ethical responsibility exists.

[bernie]

case 2...

i think its up to the players to police the game. cardspeak. and this shouldnt be overlooked when the dealer makes a mistake...

that said, if im in my normal room, id speak up. this also has a positive effect for when your in a dispute as far as credibility...

outside my normal room? it's up to the regulars to police the game. if i go into a room and i see the regulars letting this stuff slide, i wont be playing in there much...when the regulars dont care enough to make sure the showdowns of their own game is right....what else is the room lacking that i may not catch?

something to think about

b

[Andy B]

Tournament case: as long as there isn't an agreement of any kind between the big stacks, there's nothing unethical going on. Letting the small stacks bust out is part of a sound tournament strategy.

Second case, I feel strongly that everyone in the game has an obligation to make sure that pots are properly awarded. If the guy tabled his straight, the cards speak for themselves, and he should get the pot. I always speak up, and I think other people should too.

On the subject of looking at other people's hands, I have come to believe that it is unethical. You use this information against them, which you could argue serves them right. I don't necessarily buy that argument, but I'll lay that aside. You can also use that inormation against the other players in the game, and that's what I have a problem with. You gain an unfair advantage against other players through no fault of their own. I will confess that I used to sneak a peek here and there. I don't any more.

[Homer]

Situation 1 - Nothing wrong with it whatsoever.

Situation 2 - I speak up everytime something like this happens provided the cards have been flipped face up on the table. Cards speak, and if the dealer does not properly determine the winning hand, I will do it for them. This does not violate the one player to a hand rule.

-- Homer

[SittingBull]

reading grant Strauss' article in "Cardplayer". Grant seems to think that playing to squeeze out another player contaminates your character as a human being.
I agree with U.
I use whatever tools are available to me to win the money EXCEPT cheating. Of course,there are some unehtical actions like INTENTIONALLY misreading my hand at the showdown that I would NOT employ.
Happy pokering,
Sitting Bull
/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

[SittingBull]

an effort to deliberately look at Grandma's hand,then U are exonerated from your moral obligation if U see her cards.

U do NOT have to inform her about her error.
If players are making errors against U,Y educate them.
However,when the session is over,U might want to advise her about her mistake so another player can't have this advantage.
Happy pokering,
Sitting Bull

[SittingBull]

need to resort to deliberately "eyeball" other players hold cards to beat their game.
Happy pokering,
Sitting Bull /forums/images/icons/mad.gif

[SittingBull]

a yellow belly coward who sat back silently. I feel like a very little Bull. I should have spoken up .
I just don't have any bull's spine in me.
Happy pokering,
Sitting Bull /forums/images/icons/frown.gif

[SittingBull]

a disciple of Grant Strauss after all! In his latest article,he seems to think that in the "tournement case",U will show more character by NOT taken advantage of the "small stake" player /forums/images/icons/confused.gif in this manner.
However,there IS a remote possiblity that I may have misconstrued his article. If U or anyone else has read his latest in "Cardplayer",please correct me if I misinterpreted his writing.
Happy pokering,
Sitting Bull

[SittingBull]

obligation /forums/images/icons/mad.gif to "speak up".
Obviously,my bull spine is made of jellyfish!
Happy pokering,
Sitting Bull

[mobes]

First case no problem....second case, definately speak up. In my game on Monday night I actually went over and pulled the shade down on a window because I could see a couple guys cards reflection....how many of you would have done that?

[Homer]

I would have, but only because I hate light....I'd still try to look at their hole cards.