Stop and Go with AK

[jcm4ccc]

Here's a hand where I used the Stop and Go but probably shouldn't have. If you think it's a stupid play, what is the range of hands that you are looking for where you would rather take your chances on doubling up rather than increase your chances of winning the hand?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (2 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t7580)
Hero (t2420)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t800</font>, Hero calls t400.

Flop: (t1600) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t1620 (All-In)</font>

[pergesu]

Why didn't you push preflop?

[Shilly]

Perfect spot to push preflop.

[Bigwig]

I can't--for the life of me--figure out why you'd use the stop n' go here.

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't--for the life of me--figure out why you'd use the stop n' go here.

[/ QUOTE ] Brain freeze?

[microbet]

It's wierd to call this a stop-n-go. You are doing it as a slowplay aren't you?

If I had shown a lot of pushing up until then, I'd probably push anything that I decided to play. If I hadn't, I might call with QQ+.

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
It's wierd to call this a stop-n-go. You are doing it as a slowplay aren't you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I promise you, it's a Stop and Go (as stupid as that may be). I don't see him folding to my all-in preflop, so there's no purpose in slow-playing it.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see him folding to my all-in preflop, so there's no purpose in slow-playing it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you want him to?

I would love a call.

[Shilly]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see him folding to my all-in preflop, so there's no purpose in slow-playing it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you want him to?

I would love a call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop, that is.

[Myst]

What type of edge do you need HU jcm???? Youll get called enough of the time by Ax, Kx, and Qx to make this push preflop profitible.

[Shilly]

Do you multi-table the 30's? My SN is Shillzor...

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see him folding to my all-in preflop, so there's no purpose in slow-playing it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you want him to?

I would love a call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop, that is.

[/ QUOTE ]

We can all agree it's a stupid play. But the big stack did give me an opportunity to do a stop-and-go. So what range of hands would you do a stop and go here? How about A2 - A6? 22 - 44? KQ, KJ? Or not any hands?

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you multi-table the 30's? My SN is Shillzor...

[/ QUOTE ]

I multi-table the 50s.

[xenotix]

Could just be me, but this seems like another pure waste of the stop n go. In fact, I can't even see how you call this a stop and go. Technically, it might be one, but this isn't why it was created/used. Personally, I feel like pushing pre-flop here is by far the best move.

The stop and go, as I understand it, is best used in very specific situations. In fact, I haven't come across a situation in which to use it in the last week of play. Basically, I believe it works best when:

1. You have a small pp vs what you believe to be two overcards (basically, ~50% odds).

2. You need the blinds.

3. You are RE-RAISED pre-flop.

This last one is key. The whole reason to use the SnG is to incite a fold post-flop when pushing pf wouldn't do it. So, here's a situation:

you have 77, 6000 chips and are HU against a big stack at 9000. Blinds are at 200/400 and you're looking to take down the blinds. You raise to 1200, and are re-raised to 2400. You don't think pushing will get the villain to fold, as he's probably on AK or AQ. You decide to use SnG - which means call this pre-flop and then push post-flop regardless of the flop.

[Myst]

Yeah I 8 table the 33s currently. My names are Mystakened and Mystraised. I vaguely remember playing against you today (Another 100 table session under my belt for today).

[Myst]

I would only do a stop and go if I DIDNT want a call. I guess that elimantes Ax and any pp from that range. Perhaps J9, 8T type hands?

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's wierd to call this a stop-n-go. You are doing it as a slowplay aren't you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I promise you, it's a Stop and Go (as stupid as that may be). I don't see him folding to my all-in preflop, so there's no purpose in slow-playing it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cmon Ive seen a lot stranger than people folding to the preflop allin. Theres maybe a reason he minraised to 800 (so that he could fold if you happened to have a hand)

[Shilly]

Yes, that was me. I wish I had the drive to put in 100 SNG sessions like you.

[Myst]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, that was me. I wish I had the drive to put in 100 SNG sessions like you.

[/ QUOTE ]

It comes in time.... You gain endurance the more and more you play. All you need is incentive. For me, thats moving up to the 109s and 215s as fast as possible.

[jcm4ccc]

All right, at the risk of getting flamed again, what about this hand?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t1130)
BB (t1115)
UTG (t1035)
Button (t6720)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t800</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t600, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (t2000) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t330 (All-In)</font>

[Shilly]

Ack, this is a good spot to push again preflop!

[Shilly]

That is, if you're going to play this hand at all.

[Myst]

I actually like a stop and go here only because this is a bubble situation. You want him to fold as much as possible

[Shilly]

Actually, this is a good point. You probaly have most hands that minraise here beat.

[fluorescenthippo]

well, i see your logic behind this. if you push, he will call. so why not do a stop and go right? its probably a good play here

[lastchance]

Good play. You obviously want him to fold because hell, you're betting t330 into a pot of hugeness. BB might come along for the ride, which is more protection against bubbling, and of course, getting called with a hand that has 2 unders against you sucks.

First one is bad because you still want your opponents to call given 3:2 odds on with AKs HU.

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]
But the big stack did give me an opportunity to do a stop-and-go.

[/ QUOTE ]

He also gave you an opportunity to fold. Doesn't make it right.

The way you phrased that makes it clear that this was all about FPS. "Golly gee, I get a chance to do a stop n go...swell!"

Just play solid poker and push over the top.

[ChuckNorris]

Do you have any real arguments against his stop'n'go? I would always stop'n'go here. There's almost no chance that the villain folds to PF push, but on the flop it's a little less unlikely. There's simply no downside to the stop'n'go, no matter how small the advantage gained.

[kamrann]

1st hand, definite push, 2nd hand, doesn't really matter - no, also a push.

Right. A stop-n-go in the first scenario is very bad indeed. There's a couple of reasons. For one thing, you DO still have FE preflop, he's min-raised to 800, if you go over the top for 1600 more plenty of players will be able to fold here. But here's the more important point. A stop-n-go is a move which in general tries to increase the chances of you winning the pot, but will result in you winning less chips overall. You're trying to prevent your opponent from calling on the occasions when he misses on the flop, but would catch on turn/river to beat you. However, when he does miss on the flop then from that point on he is obviously a big dog to hit and win (assuming you are ahead to begin with, as you are here), and so you are giving up plenty of EV if he folds. If he hits the flop theres no way he's folding anyway. As such, you only want to stop-n-go when winning the pot is far more important than maximizing EV. This is far from such a situation. You have a 3:1 chip deficit heads up. You really need to double up and you have a great hand to do it with, so that's what you should be aiming for.
Look at it this way. On the flop the pot is 1600. You go allin for 1600 more. Now, the only time he may fold here is if he missed the flop, so at the very best he has 6 outs with 2 cards to come, making you about a 79% favourite. If he folds you have 3200 chips, 32% equity of the money you're still playing for. If he calls, you have about 0.79 * 4800 chips which is 38% equity. Bear in mind also that you'll probably be a bigger favourite on average on the times he would consider folding (sometimes you will have hit the flop, sometimes you will have had him dominated preflop), plus these equities were worked out assuming a linear model (ICM), whereas in reality its probably fair to say that if you have 32% of the chips heads up when the blinds are high, you likely have slightly less than 32% equity.

The stacks sizes in the second hand make it much simpler. There's almost no difference between the two plays, since the raiser left himself with just 200 chips so the chances of him folding are pretty much zero. The minute advantage you may gain if its possible he'll fold is countered by the fact that by not pushing, you allow the BB to see a flop if he wishes without getting allin. Then on the flop you push, you're up against two opponents and so are more likely to be behind, and if one calls the other will likely fold, thereby leaving you to bust out on the bubble if you lose. In fact, I think this drawback outweighs any advantage, so you should push preflop here too.

[DireWolf]

I don't really see the point of Stop and Go's with AK.



You are trying to increase fold equity? But after the flop what hands are you trying to get to fold. In the second hand, All pairs are calling this flop, with these chips stacks. The hands that you do fold are the exact hands you want to call, Like AQ, AJ, KQ.

Don't give AQ a chance to fold after the flop.

In some cases, you will cause villans to fold underpairs, but open pushing is not a move often made with a huge hand, and i think you are going to get called a lot by middle pair/underpair here a good amount of the time.

[kamrann]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you have any real arguments against his stop'n'go? I would always stop'n'go here. There's almost no chance that the villain folds to PF push, but on the flop it's a little less unlikely. There's simply no downside to the stop'n'go, no matter how small the advantage gained.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. See my post below. There are cases where there's no downside, but they're rare. Stop-n-gos are used too much, you need to remember that they should only be used when winning the pot is more important than winning the most chips. If the amount of chips you keep back preflop is too large relative to the amount in the pot, then a stop-n-go becomes a bad choice. Either you don't do it with a bad hand because you risk too much to win too little, or you dont do it with a good hand because you're giving too much EV up by giving your opponent more chances to fold when he's far enough behind that you don't actually want him to. At the other end of the spectrum, when you have hardly any chips back after making the call, is where the stop-n-go has the minimum of downside (sometimes none), so it's an obvious choice to make the play, but it gives only a very small +EV over straight pushing, since the less chips you have, the less likely it is you can make your opponent fold on the flop anyway. In the middle of these two extremes is where the stop-n-go is of real value. Cases where you have no FE preflop, but enough chips to really make someone fold on the flop, yet not so many chips that you are risking too much or giving away too much when you push on the flop. You can't really specify exactly what the conditions are though, you just need to weigh up each situation and develop a feel for when a stop-n-go is really going to be effective.

As for what hands would it be good to stop-n-go in this situation, I think not many, mostly because I do believe you have some preflop FE here. Putting that aside, you would do it with the hands which you decide you're not folding, but which are not sufficiently good that you think you're a strong enough favourite that you should just go for maximum chips instead. It all depends on the range of hands you put him on. I think if I thought I had no preflop FE here, I'd stop and go with 22-44, and some hands downward of KJ, QJ, etc. You could also make a case for doing it with any two (bad) cards here, if your opponent is the sort of player likely to fold if he misses.

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you have any real arguments against his stop'n'go? I would always stop'n'go here. There's almost no chance that the villain folds to PF push, but on the flop it's a little less unlikely. There's simply no downside to the stop'n'go, no matter how small the advantage gained.

[/ QUOTE ]
Um...no, I don't really have an argument against his stop n go.

I do, however, have a reasonable argument for pushing preflop.

Hero has a premium hand heads up, and is likely to get action. Why wouldn't you want to get called here? You're a strong favorite to double through...what hand are you waiting for to get your money in preflop with? Just aces?

Oh wait, I forgot that AK is "just a drawing hand." That changes things considerably. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
I wish I had the TIME to put in 100 SNG sessions like you.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYPTDMP

[lastchance]

You guys don't see how +EV (completely awesome) it would be to get a fold for t330 in a pot of t2000, even with AK?

AK is great, but picking up this pot is way better than getting called.

Even against AQ, you STILL want a fold here (at least preflop). You don't want to be called with dominated hands.

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]
You guys don't see how +EV (completely awesome) it would be to get a fold for t330 in a pot of t2000, even with AK?

AK is great, but picking up this pot is way better than getting called.

Even against AQ, you STILL want a fold here (at least preflop). You don't want to be called with dominated hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
When I first read this I thought it was bullshit.

Then I took a step back and reminded myself that your posts are always right...so I decided to check it out myself. Needless to say I was initially surprised that, while it's close, picking up the pot is in fact better than getting called. But a part of me wasn't surprised cause, well, you said that'd be the case.

*sigh* So much to learn.

[lastchance]

I wasn't talking about the first one, I was talking about the super-obvious second one. The first one is an easy push preflop, IMHO.

Besides the fact that picking up the pot is slightly better here, it's better to push preflop because you might actually get folds preflop, giving you a read on Villain's minraising. I'm also somewhat surprised that the first one is better to stop and go as well, though I suppose not too surprised.

So, I push preflop in the first one, but the second one is the easiest stop and go in the world.

And yeah, I have a lot to learn too. Don't read any post I make on L1-L3, or at least take it with a grain of salt. Read Adanthar instead.

[pergesu]

Aight I'm kinda confused now. I was talking about the first hand, in which a stop and go is better than just pushing preflop. Despite that, you said you'd still push preflop. Why?

[lastchance]

Because you'll get folds preflop from junk hands (32o, 73s, etc), and calls from hands AK has dominated.

(Wow, that's a lot better explanation than I thought it would be)

[TheNoodleMan]

I had a rambling long winded explanation of why I think these are 2 terrible plays, but I decided that instead of posting my incoherrant musings, I'd simply ask "Where is Citanul when you need him?"