Another hand - I think that I played this one Really poorly - BB J7o

[CanadianAmy]

I am learning alot today and I REALLY appreciate the help!!! /images/graemlins/heart.gif /images/graemlins/heart.gif /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Read on opponents is LAP.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls, MP1 folds, SB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG folds.

River: (7 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9 BB

[Jakesta]

Fold the turn. I really don't like raising this flop either, because all you have is middle pair with a shitty overcard. You have no good draws of any kind.

[@bsolute_luck]

i thought about the flop play, and i can't say i totally disagree with it. it definitely is a raise/fold situation on the flop. you have 2nd pair and a BDSD, and SB could be on a lower straight draw or flush draw. by raising you buy outs i think. the only hesitation i have is the pot size which is small.

you improve on your BDSD on the turn, so i'd call.

i'd have folded the river because i don't think our 2nd pair is good here.

[mithong]

fold the flop
IMO, the pot is way too small for you to be using this play.. and even then you dont have any draws... all u got is 2nd pair and a jack, so your drawin to 4-5 outs... (assuming a straight isnt out there) after you make the play, the turn call is a little iffy because i don't think you have the pot odds to call this.

keep on reading the forums man, just a couple of months ago i knew jack squat about limit hold em and was as clueless as you may feel you are right now
but it comes quick +)

[MrEngenic]

On the flop: The pot is not big enough to fight over with a hand this weak. Fold. Maybe occasionally take a look at the turn but fold unimproved. You pick up a gutshot on the turn so I guess a call is fine but I don't have the odds chart in front of me. You have something like 4-7 outs I'd say. UTG could raise behind you as well.
I don't like the river call. The only thing you beat is a flush draw or a complete bluff. On the flop he either hit at least a pair or had a straight draw. If he was on a straight draw he has the straight or a pair of 9's, if he had botton pair now he has trips, if he had top pair it's better than yours. I can't see what you can beat here that can play like this except for a desperate bluff with overcard flush draw that missed.

All in all I'd say you have some serious leaks in your game. Some of your hands have been awful. Pick your fights in big pots with good hands, not in small pots with poor to marginal hands.

[Fantam]

I think that you should have folded your hand on the flop.

You had a marginal hand (middle pair) and the pot was small. The flop was somewhat co-ordinated and SB had bet and you had 2 players still to act after you.

You were probably competing against top pair or strong draws like flushes or straights in a multiway pot, and so your chances of winning were small.

The time to call (or perhaps raise) with these marginal hands is when the pot is big, and your potential reward for winning the hand justifies the risk.

[malo]

Agree with the folks who advise folding on the flop for all the reasons given. However......

Let's say you have J7s and the flop gave you both a back door flush and a gutshot str8t, to go with you middle pair and average overcard. Pairing the jack may not do you any good, as it would complete the str8t for anyone holding 10/9, so I would not value it at 3 full outs....maybe 1.5, the backdoor and gutshot 1.5 each. After the SB bets, the pot would give you 5-1 so worth seeing another card. Fold on flop with no improvement.

In this hand, the jack was virtually worthless, as it completed a str8 draw, and would prolly leave you with second best 2-pr against a str8. You don't have a gutshot, it's a 2-gapper, and no flush draw.

Drop it on the flop.

[Quercus]

This is a pretty routine flop fold given the way the board is coordinated. A raise won't drive anyone with a 6 out of the hand. You don't have all that many clean outs to improve your hand (the J/images/graemlins/club.gif is tained) and you have 3 players in with you. Review the section on reverse implied odds. Any 6, 4, 9, T, Q, K, A is potentially disasterous for your hand. Any /images/graemlins/club.gif as well. With the pot as small as it is, its better just to surrender on the flop.

However, given that you did choose to play it - the raise on the flop is better than a call. A raise protects your hand by encouraging overcards to fold out (though, the pot is small enough that overcards shouldn't be calling anyway). If you made the raise for that reason, then you are getting closer. Just re-read the SSHE sections on protecting your hand.

When the SB bets back into you on the turn when the 9 hits, you really need to let this hand go. Its ok to occasionally make loose calls in very large pots, especially against opponents who might be taking a bluff at a scare card. In small pots like this, your opponents aren't bluffing often enough to make the calls profitable.

You also may want to consider moving down in stakes while you work on postflop aspects of your game.

[BlackRain]

I always fold the flop here. Calling or raising is not something I even consider here against 3 opponents. HU, different story.

[mockingbird]

The Flop: I think I would fold to the flop bet. You have middle pair and an overcard - many times this is worth continuing. But in this instance there are extenuating factors:

1)There are two clubs on board so spiking the 7c or Jc could complete a flush or at least give someone a redraw to a flush.

2)Spiking a J could also complete a str8 since there is a 7 and an 8 on board. Or, it could at least give someone a gutshot.

3)Even if you hit a J and it doesnt complete a flush or str8 players with an 5 or 8 and an overcard to your J still have a redraw to beat you.

4)Very Importantly - The pot is small - 5 small bets. Why risk two small bets on a marginal hand? Other than spiking a 7 (not a club ) you dont really have any draws to anything close to the nuts.

The Turn: I would fold to a turn bet even though it looks like you have middle pair, a double gutshot and an overcard:

1)You dont really have a double gut shot since a 6 puts a str8 on board and you have, at best, a split pot. Anyone with a T beats you. If it is the 6c or 6h it could complete someones flush to beat you. If a T hits, you might have the best str8 but again the Tc or Th could complete a str8.

I don't know how to estimate your outs here, certainly less than 8, a wild guess would be about 4 outs.

2)As far as hitting 2 pair or trips similiar reasoning decreases the value of these outs. A club or heart can complete a flush and any J can complete a str8.

Again, I have no idea how to estimate your outs, certainly less that 5, maybe 2 outs.

3)Anyone with an 8 or 9 already has you beat. The small blind is betting with SOMETHING. ( I think ). And UTG probobly has a good drawing hand.

3)Again 5 big bets is not a huge pot and you dont have good odds to call a bet. If 6 outs is right (??????) you would need 6.75 to 1 pot odds to call.

The River: On the river. The SB has now bet three times. There are 3 hearts on board. Your hand is UI. You need to call one bet for an 8 bet pot.

I guess if I had gone this far I would call the last river bet. I'm not sure if that is the right move. To call the river you only need to win 12% of the time. It's certainly likely that 1 in 8 times the SB was betting a draw that missed. Either a club or a str8 draw.

The problem is, you should not be in this hand at the river at all. I think it is -EV to raise the flop instead of folding it.

QUESTION: Can anyone give me an idea of how to get a good estimeate of her outs on the turn?

[CanadianAmy]

Mockingbird,

Thank you for the reply, it gave me a few things to think about.

I appreciate your detailed response.

Amy

[mockingbird]

You're welcome. I hope most of it is correct and that I am not leading you down the garden path so to speak. I am pretty new myself.

Like I said in the post, I'm not sure about calling a river bet. Others think it best to fold and on reevaluation I'm inclined to agree.

Janis