How did I play this hand? KQo

[CanadianAmy]

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (14 SB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (12 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG folds, Hero calls, MP1 calls, Button calls.

River: (20 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls, MP1 folds, Button calls.

Final Pot: 23 BB

[shadow29]

I think that this one is much better.

I would raise pf, however.

[Jakesta]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that this one is much better.

I would raise pf, however.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus died so that we could raise AJo and KQo from EP.

[mithong]

depending on the tightness of the table, i might consider raising that hand preflop... but at UTG+1 its a close one...

the flop raise is good..
when the button check-raises you, you gotta slow down because in all likelihood he has you beat.. so call down from there

nice hand.

[Kumubou]

KQo is too strong of a hand to not raise pre-flop, even from EP.

The flop action is fine, trying to get some of the random-ass weak draws out of the pot to increase your winning chances.

On the turn, I am having trouble putting BB on a hand. Bill Fillmaff? (KJo) That's the only think that would make any sense... or maybe he was just a donk.

The river is the brickiest of bricks, and I throw in a crying call, if only to figure out what he had (that, and he needs to be bluffing only 4% of the time for this to be profitable -- you'll see some random at least that often).

-K

[CanadianAmy]

Are you saying it is a sin to Raise AJo and KQo, or that he did so that we are now alowd to?

Just to clarify.

/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Amy

[J_B]

I'm tight preflop, I either fold or raise to drive others out. hopefully we can make this hand heads up! Other than that the hand looks ok.

[LoaferGee12]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm tight preflop, I either fold or raise to drive others out. hopefully we can make this hand heads up! Other than that the hand looks ok.

[/ QUOTE ]

Making the hands heads up is not really our goal here and will rarely happen. We're raising this hand because we have a high equity preflop compared to the other players that will call and cold-call our raise.

[Jaran]

This hand is much better than the others you have posted. Work towards raising this pf. It really does make the hand easier to play. Nice raise on the flop. Do you have any read on the BB?

-Jaran

[moot]

The preflop raise is table dependant. I think it's pretty close either way and failing to raise here isn't a huge sin.

Though... if you're not at a table where this hand should be raised preflop then you may want to move (because ideally you'd like to be at one where a preflop raise is a no-brainer).

The postflop play is well done and I like it on all streets.

[bottomset]

I think AJo and KQo can be some of the the trickiest hands to play postflop when coming in for a raise in EP .. its not a big edge she's passing on, and I think here game has bigger, more important problems than griping over this(though this is the longterm goal)

my suggestions if you are playing more than 1table, stop .. go down to 1table for a while .. focus on watching your opponents are they loose/tight passive/aggressive .. do they always lead postflop after raising pre .. do they bet/raise draws, do they backdown immediately after being faced with aggression, etc

those types of things will make playing your hands much easier, I'd suggest you drop to say .25/.5 maybe .10/.20 get a better feel for postflop play, at a level that isn't very dangerous financially

get Getting Started in Holdem, and Small Stakes HoldEm and spend time reading through them .. a lot of the material is pretty complex, and takes practice to understand

*edit the not raising comment was directed more at the ppl that said it was a big error, and the whole Jesus thing .. the truth is, the EV is close either way, and calling here won't turn a winner into a loser, and this isn't something that needs to be on the top of the OP's priority list

[J_B]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm tight preflop, I either fold or raise to drive others out. hopefully we can make this hand heads up! Other than that the hand looks ok.

[/ QUOTE ]

Making the hands heads up is not really our goal here and will rarely happen. We're raising this hand because we have a high equity preflop compared to the other players that will call and cold-call our raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, and this is why I muck it preflop almost every single time.

[Jaran]

I agree with your assesment of her game at this time. I was not trying to harp on a marginal pf raise, but rather give her something to work toward. Besides going out and getting a couple of books (read, digest, repeat) and possibly dropping down in levels/decreasing # of tables, I think Amy could really benefit from posting her thoughts on numerous hands without reading others posts first. Taking the time to write out and think out a tough situation would be very beneficial.

-Jaran

[aK13]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm tight preflop, I either fold or raise to drive others out. hopefully we can make this hand heads up! Other than that the hand looks ok.

[/ QUOTE ]

Making the hands heads up is not really our goal here and will rarely happen. We're raising this hand because we have a high equity preflop compared to the other players that will call and cold-call our raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, and this is why I muck it preflop almost every single time.

[/ QUOTE ]

You shouldn't be. It's fine to raise preflop if you're decent postflop.

[mockingbird]

I sometimes do and sometimes dont raise QKo from EP. It depends on the type and number of opponents.

I like the flop raise.

I thnk I am paraphrasing from SSHE, but it seems to me that at this level, when a player c/r the turn into a big field they usually have the goods.

I like the turn bet and call.

I would put BB on a KJ suited w/2 pair. That would leave you drawing to 3 queens 15 to 1 getting 17 to 1 pot odds - a close call statistically. You will probobly get one more big bet on the river if you hit. I put him on this because he bet out the flop instead of slow playing which he likely would have done with a flopped set or two pair. And, he got tricky, check raising the turn against a flop raiser indicating that at that point he was pretty sure he had you beat.

I dont think he has a set since he bet out the flop, Usually a .50/1 player will slow play a set on the flop - usually - and not bet out. And if he did bet out and got raised, why not reraise, since you were not the pf raiser and are unlikely to have KK. But if he does have a set - you are drawing to 2 outs - not + EV for you.

I also dont think he has two pair such as K5 or K6 for the same reasons. He bet out the flop instead of slow playing and did not reraise when raised and the pf raiser folds.
However, if he does have one of these hands:

1)K5: You have 9 outs. You need 4 to 1 pot odds to call one more bet and are getting 17 to 1.

2)K6: You have 6 outs. You need about 6.5 to 1 pot odds to call one bet, and you have more than twice that


He could also have any other two pair, if he has:

3) J5: You have 8 outs. You need 4.75 to 1 post odds. Good call.

4) J6: You have 8 outs again.

5) 56: You have 8 outs.

He could also have Kx but I doubt it since he c/r the turn against a flop raiser.

I think his most likely hand is KJ which would be about slightly +EV for you to call his turn raise. Most of his other likely hands, IMO, give you good odds to call his turn c/r.

So I like the turn bet and call. Again, I think it is very unlikey that he is bluffing. I think you are beaten. But you only need to win 5% of the time in this big pot to be a slight winner, so calling the river is fine.

[MrEngenic]

I usually (well, almost always) raise with KQo preflop.
The pot is pretty big on the flop so I'm not sure you should raise the flop. I think this is a case where you should consider raising the turn instead! The only hands that will fold for a flop raise in this big pot are hands you have badly beat already. If you raise the turn you make them pay to stay with their strong draws and you make them fold their weak ones.
Read "Protecting your hand when the pot is big" in SSH.

[MrEngenic]

Why not consider just calling the flop and raise the turn? Isn't this straightforward application of "Protecting your hand when the pot is extremely large"? The pot is not "extremely" big, but big enough that it should be applicable.

[Quercus]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not consider just calling the flop and raise the turn? Isn't this straightforward application of "Protecting your hand when the pot is extremely large"? The pot is not "extremely" big, but big enough that it should be applicable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because there are 4 players to act behind. The pot is currently 15SB. If hero calls, its 16:1, allowing way too many profitable calls behind. Hero needs to manipulate the odds with her vulnerable made hand such that gutshots, Ace w/a backdoor, etc will now be incorrect to call given the 8.5:1 odds she offers.

[MrEngenic]

A gutshot will call profitably for two bets because of the implied odds. On the turn if BB doesn't bet again because of your raise they will have another profitable call because they will only face one bet.

If all 4 people have pairs they would all call for one bet but fold for two, they have collectively 8 outs to make a set. If this is the situation it is better to raise.

If the pot is big enough to make gutshots and pairs call profitable for two bets on the flop, I think it's better to get in a raise on the turn. With many opponents with very weak draws but many collective outs against you, a flop raise is preferable. How do you know which action is the best?

Meditate on this, I will. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[BellyBuster7]

Hi Amy-
You definitely should've raised pre-flop. I wasn't respecting Button's raises as he was raising a lot of garbage, so I decided to make the donk call and defend. You were much tighter, so had you been the one to make the raise, I would've folded. FWIW, I think you played the hand fine postflop.

Sincerely,
the Big Blind /images/graemlins/wink.gif