Automatic all in...my buddy disagrees

[ChuckyB]

Am I right? I can't possibly justify passing this up, can I?

I ORIGINALLY POSTED THIS AS "AUTOMATIC CALL?" SORRY ABOUT THAT...


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t1500)
Hero (t480)
UTG (t3670)
MP (t1415)
Button (t935)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t400</font>, MP calls t400, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls t300

[treeofwisdom7]

your buddy is right

how many chips are you gonna have on the flop?

[lastchance]

5:1 with 4 people in the pot and death staring you down at the end of the road. I don't know if J8 is good enough here, these spots don't come up much.

If I'm playing, I'm calling and putting t80 in on any pot, I think.

[ChuckyB]

I figured 1400 in already...my last 280 will get another 240...280 to win a 1920 pot. When will I ever get a chance like this to make the money?

[lastchance]

You're probably right. It's just that this spot sucks...

[Sidekick]

I think this one is entirely table dependent. If the table has been even moderately loose I think you have to go ahead and push in and pray. You are getting good odds here. Should you luck out and win you are suddenly in good shape to finish ITM.

If the table has been very tight then I fold this and I am most likely pushing any two next hand from the SB unless something really weird happens like 2 or 3 all-ins ahead of me.

The problem with folding here is that it leaves you with only 280 chips and you will lose another 100 to the SB next hand pretty much guaranteeing that you will be called. Then, even if you win that hand you are still very short stacked.

So... unless this table has been incredibly tight I push this and figure I'm dead no matter which course I take, but if I can get lucky here I'm back in business.

Just my opinion.

[adanthar]

First of all, this isn't an automatic all in, period. If you're gonna play the hand (you probably shouldn't), call it. The reason: if you check on a flop that misses and something weird happens like UTG pushes and gets two calls, you can get out.

Anyway, you're probably somewhere around 10% to win this hand if everyone stays in to showdown. Make of that what you will.

[ChuckyB]

I would think calling would be the worst play I could make. If I call, then fold, I have 80 chips left with the big blind coming. At least this was, it's conceivable that one or both of my cards are live. Plus I can quadruple up. There's no chance I win this tourney without a major lucky score here.

If I fold, I have to double up twice to get to 1000. This situation (with a possible quadruple and no really strong betting in front of me just felt right)

[lastchance]

Tell me, would you rather play with or without the cold-callers?

Doubling or tripling up is greatly preferable to quadrupling up, since it's more likely someone has AA, and your equity is falling like a rock.

[ChuckyB]

Exactly. It's a $6 SNG on Party...so we all suck. I need to get lucky either now or next hand. And now is giving me a big return on the rest of my money.

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
I would think calling would be the worst play I could make. If I call, then fold, I have 80 chips left with the big blind coming. At least this was, it's conceivable that one or both of my cards are live. Plus I can quadruple up. There's no chance I win this tourney without a major lucky score here.

If I fold, I have to double up twice to get to 1000. This situation (with a possible quadruple and no really strong betting in front of me just felt right)

[/ QUOTE ] If you are going to play this, there is very little benefit to pushing this. Just call it. As Adanthar said, you could fold if some bizarre situation arises that could allow you to take 3rd place. Also, if you call, you may induce somebody on the flop to bet to get you all-in, which may lead someone else to fold.

[ChuckyB]

In my desperation here, I loved seeing the second cold-caller and the small blind come too. I was so happy.

In this situation the min-raise was coming from a player who'd been big-stacking the table since having about 3000 in level 1. The cold call and the SB call seemed very weak (why not steal if you've got something great.)

I didn't believe any big pairs were out there.

[lastchance]

Eh... It can mean big pair here. More likely, I think you're right, it might mean crap. Still, I want 30% at doubling up rather 10% at quadding up.

[curtains]

btw one very obvious reason why calling is better than allin is because there is the slim chance that you make nothing, and the hand gets checked down to the river, thus saving you 80 chips. Of course it's not much but it's better than nothing, and raising accomplishes nothing anyway.

[adanthar]

There's also stuff like this:

***** Hand History for Game 1856092095 *****
NL Hold'em Trny:11072289 Level:4 Blinds (25/50) - Wednesday, April 06, 22:17:44 EDT 2005
Table $15,000 Guaranteed Wednesday Night Poker(293716) Table #8 (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: ryry27 ( $2750 )
Seat 2: adanthar1 ( $3265 )
Seat 3: cirerenrut ( $2050 )
Seat 4: saggie ( $1550 )
Seat 5: lrsmac ( $1315 )
Seat 6: jpdawg05 ( $445 )
Seat 7: MasterTF ( $2060 )
Seat 9: harley_2 ( $60 )
Seat 10: ilduce5 ( $3260 )
Seat 8: GenoHappywee ( $2010 )
Trny:11072289 Level:4
Blinds (25/50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to adanthar1 [ 2c Tc ]
cirerenrut folds.
saggie folds.
lrsmac calls [50].
jpdawg05 calls [50].
MasterTF calls [50].
GenoHappywee folds.
harley_2 calls [50].
ilduce5 folds.
ryry27 calls [25].
adanthar1 checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8h, Qd, Qh ]
ryry27 checks.
adanthar1 checks.
lrsmac checks.
jpdawg05 checks.
MasterTF checks.
harley_2 checks.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8d ]
ryry27 checks.
adanthar1 checks.
lrsmac checks.
jpdawg05 checks.
MasterTF checks.
harley_2 is all-In. ( <font color="red"> for 10 chips </font>)
ryry27 folds.
adanthar1 folds.
lrsmac folds.
jpdawg05 folds.
MasterTF folds.
harley_2 does not show cards.
harley_2 wins 310 chips

[ewing55]

I don't know what I'd do, but raising here does allow the original raiser to go all-in if he prefers, which might knock out 1 or 2 of the callers.

If I was the original raiser with QQ I might want to push now and try to knock out the callers. I have enough in the pot and don't want a bunch of K's and A's looking for another one on the flop.

--------------Jeff

[jgunnip]

Clearly the implied odds to call weren't there...

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know what I'd do, but raising here does allow the original raiser to go all-in if he prefers, which might knock out 1 or 2 of the callers.

If I was the original raiser with QQ I might want to push now and try to knock out the callers. I have enough in the pot and don't want a bunch of K's and A's looking for another one on the flop.

--------------Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you can't go allin over a raise thats less than half of the original raise.

[PapiChulo503]

It might not be the correct thing to do but I think im waiting for a better spot. You have a raise and a call ahead of you which means that you would need better cards than J8 to win. I would wait and push from the SB.

How often does J8 win against two other opponents with random holdings?

How often does J8 win against only 1 opponent?

Just my 2cents.

[ChuckyB]

Please tell me you made that one up!

[ChuckyB]

As it went down...
I pushed in the rest of my chips thinking about quadrulpling up. (Now that I've read this thread, I'll think more the next time.)

My J8 hit the 882 board pretty hard. 6 turn, 3 river...a pair of fours bet out the other two after it had been checked around.

I pulled one out of my butt, quadrupled up and ended up finishing second.

Thanks for your thoughts. It's given me something to consider.