Guess our hands

[Roland]

So, I had been playing for over 15 hours and was pretty tired. Then this hand came up…Chef and I finally clash. Looks like every time two 2+2ers get in a hand together one of them has to fold on the river. Can you guess our hands?
(gotta love the new maniac structure at party /images/graemlins/grin.gif the ante is .50 of course)



7 Card Stud High ($5/$10), Ante $5.00, Bring-In $2 (hand converter (http://www.geocities.com/greenage22/7StudConverter.hta.txt))

3rd Street - (7.00 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif___raises___raises
Seat 2: xx xx 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif___calls___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___brings-in___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___calls___folds
Hero : xx xx T/images/graemlins/club.gif___completes___raises___calls

4th Street - (19.80 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif___raises
Seat 2: xx xx 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif___checks___folds
Hero: xx xx T/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif___bets___calls

5th Street - (11.90 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif___bets
Hero: xx xx T/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif___calls

6th Street - (13.90 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___raises
Hero: xx xx T/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif___bets___calls

River - (17.90 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif xx___bets
Hero: xx xx T/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif___checks___folds

Total pot: (17.90 BB)

[BeerMoney]

Make a crying call on the river.

I'd also like to add something Timmer once said "When two tight players get into a raising war, one of them's gonna regret it.." Well.. I guess this is true in any poker situation.. But, I think you get what I say.

[greenage]

What??? Can you PM the whole hand history to me? Also, can you let me know what your “Regional and Language” options are (see the “Control Panel” for this.)

Serious, I don’t get this.

[TheShootah]

You have (AA)T and he has (77)7. Bad guesses, but hell, the Aces are live. Maybe you both have Aces. I dunno.

[jon_1van]

You had a high flush draw that you went crazy with.

Chef had Pocket K's. I can't see Chef raising you on 6th with "just" rolled 7s when you pair your door card. Although he might. I'm guessing he had the Ks because pocket KK is more likely than pocket 77.

And you don't fold a high 2 pair on the river there. Nor do you fold Trip Ts. So you had to have a flush draw.

[BTirish]

I'm having trouble figuing this out. You aren't on a flush draw or straight draw... one guess is 10-A-10 with 2 clubs to start. You completed and reraised to isolate against a bigger pair in the hole. The problem is that you'd still call on the river, even though he raised against your paired door. So my official guess is that you had Q's in the hole.

My guess is that he's got K-K-7. He didn't blink when you paired your door card. So, either he read you for Q's in the hole and had 7-K-7 (which I doubt), or he had to have had K-K-7 to play like this. A's in the hole are a possibility for you, but since you didn't call on the river, I don't think that's what you had. So, K-K-7 is my official guess, but 7-K-7 and 7-7-7 are both possibilities.

Anywhere close?

[SittingBull]

Roland had rolled up 7's and read chef correctly for a set of K's.
SittingBull

[bigredlemon]

Seat 2: 3flush
Hero: (QQ-AA)T
Seat 1: (77)7

I'm not sure about chef's raise on 6th given that you've paired your door card. With just rolled 7s and a dead 7, she's looking at two pair at best and reasonably possible trip 10s. Given Hero's complete and raise on 3rd, I don't think she can put you on a flush draw although you may have had that.

[grandgnu]

You had Aces in the hole and your opponent had trip 7's.

[dandy_don]

[ QUOTE ]
River - (17.90 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 7 3 K 8 xx___bets
Hero: xx xx T 6 7 T 9___checks___folds


[/ QUOTE ]

Hero didn't hit the straight and didn't have the trip T's, so I'm going to guess AAT on 3rd and improved to A's up with the later T.

I would normally believe that Seat 1 does not have trips because he is so aggressive with them early on instead of slow playing, and seems to want to limit the field. However, since Hero completed, Seat 1 figures that Hero will go along for the ride and raises.

Seat 1 = 777 on 3rd /images/graemlins/confused.gif
Hero = AAT on 3rd /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Roland]

Some interesting guesses. The winner is Beer though – we were chatting yesterday and he guessed the hand correctly in about 30 seconds: aces for me and kings for Chef.


I thought Jon’s guess was remarkable (although impossible – I caught the 9 of clubs on the river, which would have completed a flush…you must have mist that Jon). Nevertheless, would it be a good idea to 3-bet with a hand like AcKcTc? After all, Chef could be raising with jacks or queens in the hole and might possibly fold if I make an open pair (or catch an ace or king). Might also buy me a free card. Any thoughts on that?

Discounting a three-flush though, the only hands I’m going to 3-bet with on 3rd are aces or kings. I don’t think re-raising with queens would be a good idea, because there are two possible hands out there that beat me (aces and kings) but only one I beat (jacks). BT mentioned that I might have been 3-betting with 10-A-10 to isolate – that doesn’t make much sense though, given my position. What did you put me on after I 3-bet Sara?

4th street is an obvious bet, giving her the chance to raise and get it heads-up. I was starting to fear trip sevens at this point though, so I didn’t re-raise. How weak-tight is that.

On 5th street I was lost… trip sevens or trip kings were really the only hands she could have given the cap on 3rd (she could have the other aces of course, but that’s far less likely). Unfortunately, I was tired and couldn’t think straight. Who folds here?

6th street…yuck. Clear raise for Chef with both trip sevens or trip kings; really no way I can have trip tens. I called for the boat (although a ten might not win it; I think I have a call though).

7th street…I thought for a few seconds and then mucked. Why call?

[jon_1van]

[ QUOTE ]
So, I had been playing for over 15 hours and was pretty tired

[/ QUOTE ]

Roland,
I took this to mean. I played the hand poorly. But if folding Aces up correctly on the river at the end of a session is your poor play...you must play very very well.

[bigredlemon]

Looks like I was wildly off, so good thing I don't play stud high. Two Qs:

wouldn't you have to make a crying call on the river?
How did you know what chef had if you folded?

[vintage_sara]

because by 6th street the gig is up. He knows i know he has aces.

[bigredlemon]

At what street did you suspect him to have aces, and what street where you very confident that he had aces?

You raised him on 4th; was that mostly to get heads up, or was that mostly because you still put him on a worest hand than kings? He only called after betting out fourth, so if you must have at least strongly suspected aces by fourth to have been sure he had aces open by 6th. This raises the question: why isolate fourth with likely just an underpair when both hands are equally live?

[Roland]

[ QUOTE ]
This raises the question: why isolate fourth with likely just an underpair when both hands are equally live?

[/ QUOTE ]


Because kings up beat aces

[jon_1van]

Sara,
Its gonna take me awhile to not call you a he. Sorry....I'll do better next time.

[Roland]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, I had been playing for over 15 hours and was pretty tired

[/ QUOTE ]

Roland,
I took this to mean. I played the hand poorly. But if folding Aces up correctly on the river at the end of a session is your poor play...you must play very very well.

[/ QUOTE ]


Thanks Jon. I don’t think that laydown was a big deal though. And I don’t play all that well, either – I’m only solid. Luckily, this can’t be said of 90% of my opponents. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
And yes, I did mean I played the hand poorly. Yeah.

[vintage_sara]

lol.

[vintage_sara]

I totally disagree. I don't think you played this hand poorly. I might have played it differently but with the information you had, the laydown on the river was huge, correct most importantly and one most players would not have made.

[lstream]

How player-dependent is your river fold here? Would you make the fold against an unkown, or a known fish/poor player who played it the same way?

[dandy_don]

Good post.

[vintage_sara]

This hand was played at a higher level. Two players who have respect for each other and are really thinking about what the other player has. He and I are betting a raising to get information and get it heads up our best odds of playing the hands. The player behind us has to worry he is going to get whip-sawed between us with action and he most assuredly will.

I raised 4th to get the pot heads up and to see if Roland has aces or if he in fact has the four flush. I expect him to reraise me actually on 4th with either hand so his smooth call is trapping me. He should know that my tendency will be to stay aggressive, unless punched in the face in this situation. This is actually the perfect hand to slow-play aces and raise me on 6th if the board comes off clean and I am high or bet into me if he is high, which he did. Unfortunately, I just happen to have a set of kings vs. the other aces. If I hadn't caught the king, this would be totally confusing to me.

But, after his call on fifh I am as sure as I can be that he has aces so I am likely folding to an open pair and unhappily check and call sixth if I don't catch the king, hoping to catch the set or two pair. (The race)

Remember, I have kings so he specifically has to have aces or the other kings to have me beat on 4th. I am not putting him on rolled up 10s given the weak boards on 3rd street. If he reraises me on 4th, then I have to back off. If he plays it like this, I am relatively sure I am beat but I am also resigned to playing the hand to the river unless he catches a club or an open pair, as my opinion of what he has evolves. Once he calls me on 5th and I catch the King and fall high, I am pretty sure he slow-played aces on 4th in this spot as I think with queens or jacks he is likely to throw this hand away and with a live four-flush he should have been willing to cap it with me on 4th, unless he suspects that I went to war with him on 3rd with three sevens. Then, of course, he would not want to do that and should consider folding on fourth or fifth if he really thinks that's what I have.

If I was Roland I would have smooth called on 4th and raised me on 5th and when i reraise fold. But given I hit a set, I might have smooth called 5th and and bet 6th (I have the king and he is likely to check behind me, putting me on the other aces with a king kicker) or raise if he fell high with anything but the ace to draw him into the hand a bit more since I have set. My goal is to try to confuse him and make him call me incorrectly on the river.

His fold on the river given the action is correct and one most players can't make nor one I would make against many players since they play so goofy. But, given it's a player like me, I am just not getting stupid on this hand. Nor has he seen me "play-off" in that session giving him reason to call. It's a top-notch fold but one I would not recommend making against many players.

Those are my thoughts. I do not think Roland played this hand wrong at all truly. I hope that if I was in his spot I would make his quality fold on the river. I love stud....lots to think about.

[vintage_sara]

see my post last post istream. I think Roland would have thought this through.

[Roland]

[ QUOTE ]
How player-dependent is your river fold here? Would you make the fold against an unkown, or a known fish/poor player who played it the same way?

[/ QUOTE ]


Completely player dependent. In fact, I’m a total calling station on the river.


Shortly before playing the hand with Chef, I got in a hand with a loose-aggressive player at a $10/$20 table. He raised first in with an ace up and got two callers; since he had been raising with a lot of junk hands, I called in last position with split queens. I made an open pair of fours on 5th, bet and, as expected, got raised. Since there was a good chance he was raising with just aces to get it heads-up, I bet again on 6th street, not willing to give him a free card… and was raised again. The thing is, though, that I can’t fold in this spot – I have to call for the boat. I didn’t improve (I never do), but called anyway – and caught him on a total bluff with high card ace!
I think this is interesting. You can’t bluff someone off two pairs on 6th street in a decent pot (although it might be interesting to try this against a very sophisticated player if some of his cards are gone – better be sure he’s paying attention though). But you might be able to set up a bluff on the river. If you remember the hand I played against Mike a while back (he posted it)… one of my possible holdings was tens in the hole, and I caught a ten on 6th while Mike made open Jacks. He bet… I think a raise in that spot would practically have forced him to lay down jacks up on the river, enabling me to steal the pot with an unimproved pair of kings. Note that this is exactly the situation I faced in the hand against Chef. If she bluffed me, she earned it.

As an interesting aside, I just watch Mike win a nice pot with a pair of threes /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[jon_1van]

[ QUOTE ]
It's a top-notch fold but one I would not recommend making against many players

[/ QUOTE ]

Very Key, Your right