Your action on this early hand from the CO? [Archive]

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Bigwig

06-11-2005, 10:44 PM

Party $50.

I took most of the time bank thinking about this one. I wasn't sure what to do. Please vote and post opinions. Thanks.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t1145)
BB (t625)
UTG (t2455)
UTG+1 (t910)
MP1 (t1360)
MP2 (t925)
MP3 (t780)
Hero (t990)
Button (t810)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
5 folds, Hero raises to t100, 1 fold, SB raises to t400, 1 fold, Hero???

Shilly

06-11-2005, 10:49 PM

I'm folding here. Calling and seeing a flop is the worst thing you can do, IMO.

curtains

06-11-2005, 10:51 PM

Im just not willing to open raise from the cutoff and fold to a reraise against a typical partypoker player. The position of your raise should increase his hand range too much for me to fold here. Probably folding isn't terrible though...if I raised from an earlier position I'd ube a lot more likely to fold.

Shilly

06-11-2005, 10:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Im just not willing to open raise from the cutoff and fold to a reraise against a typical partypoker player. The position of your raise should increase his hand range too much for me to fold here. Probably folding isn't terrible though...if I raised from an earlier position I'd ube a lot more likely to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you, and had this been level 3 instead, I might be more inclined to push. I don't think most players view CO open-raises in level 2 as "steals," per say, and although I think it increases his hand range by a good amount, I would still fold.

Bigwig

06-11-2005, 10:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Im just not willing to open raise from the cutoff and fold to a reraise against a typical partypoker player. The position of your raise should increase his hand range too much for me to fold here. Probably folding isn't terrible though...if I raised from an earlier position I'd ube a lot more likely to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Two things though:

1. The size of his raise is worrisome. It shouts two things: monster or donk, and I don't know which one he is.

2. A big reraise here most often represents a range of hands that JJ is a strong favorite against, but it can't be 3:2. Probably between 3:2 and 11:9. I have a healthy stack and it's early. Do I need to take that edge now?

curtains

06-11-2005, 11:08 PM

If your edge is between 3:2 and 11:9 then I believe that yes you do, especially with 100 chips already in the pot. Probably folding isnt terrible, I just dont like it.

1C5

06-11-2005, 11:09 PM

I fold here.

But whenever someone makes a raise like this, most of the time it is AA, KK or AK.

Unless for the few that have Q3o.

So my question to you is...what about if you had QQ instead?

I usually push QQ and fold JJ here but if villian has AK the majority of the time why would I fold JJ and call with QQ? I am still losing to AA/KK and the same coinflip vs AK than I am with JJ.

My strategy makes no sense does it? Need some help with this one...

Ogre

06-12-2005, 01:40 AM

can somebody explain their reasons for calling? It seems pretty horrible to me

tech

06-12-2005, 01:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
A big reraise here most often represents a range of hands that JJ is a strong favorite against

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. In my experience at the 55s (1500 tourneys or so), this reraise represents a monster, and at best you are probably against overcards. If he had pushed, I would be far less suspicious. I suspect you will see AA, KK, QQ, AK far more often than you will see Ax or a lower pocket pair.

microbet

06-12-2005, 02:01 AM

I maybe wrong, but I think the size of his raise is very worrisome. I'd much rather call a push. I fold here. (unless villian and I know eachother or something)

microbet

06-12-2005, 02:03 AM

Actually, I push here sometimes, but I think that it's when I'm tilty.

microbet

06-12-2005, 02:04 AM

I think you can even take AK out of there most of the time. AK really wants to push or just call.

PokerCat69

06-12-2005, 02:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I usually push QQ and fold JJ here but if villian has AK the majority of the time why would I fold JJ and call with QQ? I am still losing to AA/KK and the same coinflip vs AK than I am with JJ.

My strategy makes no sense does it? Need some help with this one...

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't forget some people Play AQs/KQs like they are premiums. QQ has a huge edge against these hands, while JJ is still a coinflip advantage. It makes sense to treat QQ as a stronger hand (which it is)

Bigwig

06-12-2005, 02:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I usually push QQ and fold JJ here but if villian has AK the majority of the time why would I fold JJ and call with QQ? I am still losing to AA/KK and the same coinflip vs AK than I am with JJ.

My strategy makes no sense does it? Need some help with this one...

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't forget some people Play AQs/KQs like they are premiums. QQ has a huge edge against these hands, while JJ is still a coinflip advantage. It makes sense to treat QQ as a stronger hand (which it is)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I wouldn't be posting this hand if I had QQ. I would have happily pushed preflop and accepted the results with full confidence that I made the right play.

To some other posters who responded to my post about the range of hands: Even though the raise is at the 'suspicious' level there are still a serious amount of donks at the $50s. But I've also run into a couple of clever players who I believe will raise a medium amount in the hopes of projecting strength. Except in specific bubble situations, JJ is still likely to be a favorite here regardless of the size of the reraise.

curtains

06-12-2005, 02:44 AM

btw I really hate to get all my money in with JJ so early, it's just this spot I might do it... btw I almost never raise to a full 100 preflop, but ok thats not too relevant.

But okay, if you raise to like 80 and the guy makes it 400....I feel like its less likely he has AA or KK than if you raise to 100 and he makes it 400. That's just a gut feeling somehow.

Shilly

06-12-2005, 02:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]

btw I really hate to get all my money in with JJ so early, it's just this spot I might do it... btw I almost never raise to a full 100 preflop, but ok thats not too relevant.

But okay, if you raise to like 80 and the guy makes it 400....I feel like its less likely he has AA or KK than if you raise to 100 and he makes it 400. That's just a gut feeling somehow.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know exactly how you feel.

Bigwig

06-12-2005, 02:46 AM

Shilly

06-12-2005, 02:48 AM

World Champ of?

Bigwig

06-12-2005, 02:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
World Champ of?

[/ QUOTE ]

Poker.

Curtains is World Champ.

45suited

06-12-2005, 09:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I maybe wrong, but I think the size of his raise is very worrisome. I'd much rather call a push. I fold here. (unless villian and I know eachother or something)

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I voted fold. Reluctantly obviously. I would be happier calling a push (screams AK or smaller PP from a guy thinking you were just making a position raise).

The comment about some players making this raise with junk (to make it appear to be a monster) is interesting, but I think those guys are few and far between. I also agree with those who said that if they had queens, they're pushing over the top of the re-raise. Good fold IMO.

Bigwig

06-12-2005, 12:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The comment about some players making this raise with junk (to make it appear to be a monster) is interesting

[/ QUOTE ]

Not junk. A good hand, but not AA or KK.

tminus

06-12-2005, 01:42 PM

fold...
i would honor the fact that he's raising from the most vulnerable position which would require a good hand

plus there are 12 cards that he could be holding (any A,K, or Q) which, if pairing on flop (29%) would take you out

plus its quite early in the game

(not saying i have this discipline)