Please Help - I am at my wits end

[CanadianAmy]

If anyone could please offer some guidance my play I would really appreciate it!

I have been playing online for about 8 months, and have never played a ‘live’ game. I recently hit a skid in my game that is making me really think that I should not be playing this game any more.

About 2 months ago things started to go downhill for me. To help understand why, I bought poker tracker. Unfortunately, most of my previous hand histories were deleted. I was tracking them in a spreadsheet and over about 14,000 hands I was running around 3.4 BB / 100 hands.

I have read and try to apply the concepts from Winning Low Limit Holdem (Lee Jones) as well as the Limit Holdem section of Super System 2. For a starting hand guide I use the SSHE ‘Tight’ table. Recently during my skid I have tightened up to try to stop the bleeding and have mostly been playing on the hands that are identified as appropriate for early position (AA – 77, AKs – A8s, AKo – AJo, KQs – KTs, KQo, QJs, QTs, JTs) and then adding more if it is late position and there are 0 to 2 callers in, or to try and steal the blinds.

I feel that I am pretty good when playing pairs, on the flop (although it seems that every opponent of mine lately is hitting their draws on the river). And I play my draws strictly by pot odds (i.e. if there are 2 or more people in I will stay in on a draw). However, I think that I have a serious weakness in my game when dealing with 2 over cards, that don’t hit on the flop. If anyone can provide guidance on how to play these I would sure appreciate it.

As for the stats. I have divided them up into three sections. Total, Winning (before I hit the skids), and Decline (my decline into poker Hell).

Any and All comments on this are most appreciated. If I can not resolve this I am going to have to quit. I am still up overall, and don’t want to get into a situation where I am playing to make back what I have lost, as I think that would be a very bad thing.

Thank you very much!!!

Total


http://members.shaw.ca/dvuch/TotalStats-Summary.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/dvuch/TotalStats-MoreDetail1.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/dvuch/TotalStats-MoreDetail2.jpg


Winning

http://members.shaw.ca/dvuch/WinningStats-Summary.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/dvuch/WinningStats-MoreDetail1.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/dvuch/WinningStats-MoreDetail2.jpg


Decline

http://members.shaw.ca/dvuch/DeclineStats-Summary.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/dvuch/DeclineStats-MoreDetail1.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/dvuch/DeclineStats-MoreDetail2.jpg

[TomBrooks]

At .5/1, I suggest you up your VPIP into the 20s, up your PFR at least a couple of points, and feel the force.

[scotty34]

You are WAY too tight. At the .5/1 level you should easily be able to play 18-20% of your hands, and optimal for good players is probably closer to the 22-25% range. You should also probably be raising 9-12% of these hands. There is a lot more you could work on as well, but first I think you should become comfortable playing more hands, and learning how to properly play positions.

[DrunkHamster]

Most obviously, your VP$IP is extremely low - you seem to be passing up loads of +EV situations which would probably help your winrate significantly. If you stick to the tight game recommendations, I think a VPIP of 22 is about right. Also, tightening up so significantly is probably responsible for a fair chunk of your loss. I am not an expert on PT stats by any means, but this is the thing that sticks out to me.

[RandBriscoe]

[ QUOTE ]
And I play my draws strictly by pot odds (i.e. if there are 2 or more people in I will stay in on a draw).

[/ QUOTE ]

I won't comment on your stats, but the above comment is a bit disturbing. The important factor is pot size not number of opponents... I hope you understand this.

+EV situations are +EV whether you're running bad or not. You've probably prolonged the swing by tightening up. And as far as swings go, I've just had one notably worse, although anything over 200 BB is a bit worrisome. Stick with it and see where you are after another 5k or so...

[CanadianAmy]

Oh yes, what I meant was I will bet with a draw if there are a few people in and will call if the odds are sufficient and there are less than 2 people in the pot at that point.

[bozlax]

Number of opponents gives you an idea of implied pot odds, not immediate, and can also be used in calculations involving pot equity, but you're probably not there, yet.

[CanadianAmy]

Just sat down and this was my first playable hand.

Did I play this wrong, or am I cursed?

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, Button folds.

Turn: (4 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, MP1 calls.

River: (6 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 8 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Ks Th (full house, tens full of jacks).
MP1 has 7s Jc (full house, jacks full of tens).
Outcome: MP1 wins 8 BB. </font>

[bozlax]

Quick glance: you're too tight preflop, you don't raise enough of the hands you do play, you're not aggressive enough postflop, and you're taking too many hands to showdown. See the sticky-FAQ for stat-reading guidelines.

That said, party-line answer coming: you probably started out running well, now you're running poorly. This is to be expected. Don't let it make you tight (I think nature has taken care of that, anyway), and keep making the "right" plays, but if you can't handle downswings you might want to find a different game.

[Redd]

From these numbers, I can tell that you're playing K/images/graemlins/club.gifQ/images/graemlins/heart.gif too passively preflop and when the hit trips on the river.

Well, the numbers, and the fact that you're playing at my table right now. /images/graemlins/wink.gif You should've raised preflop, and I don't recall the exact play but I would've probably dumped for 2 back on the flop.

[RandBriscoe]

You know this hand was fine.

By playing so tightly you're probably missing out on big pots with the speculative hands (78s, 22, whatever). Do you find yourself looking for a reason not to play hands like these? If you're running like crap, big pairs get busted all the time, flopping small sets and things can help soften the blow.

[bozlax]

Cursed. Send me your bankroll, and I'll send you back 10% of everything I make with it.

But, seriously. No, you're actually lucky that MP1 is so jackass-passive, or he might've charged you an extra BB...he should've raised the river.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
From these numbers, I can tell that you're playing K/images/graemlins/club.gifQ/images/graemlins/heart.gif too passively preflop and when the hit trips on the river.

Well, the numbers, and the fact that you're playing at my table right now. /images/graemlins/wink.gif You should've raised preflop, and I don't recall the exact play but I would've probably dumped for 2 back on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

POTD

[CanadianAmy]

Ok, so i need to losen up a LOT. I get that now.

Is the SSHE 'Tight' Starting Hand Chart appropriate. People always talk about 5+ people entering the pot in low limit holdem (At least in the books I read), but I have never seen this.

Is this approrpate?

Thanks

Amy

[no1super2001]

I have played at a table with you this week, I believe. I am going out right now, but I remember you. There was something about your play that stuck in my head. I will look at PT from the games and get back to you. If you do not want me to post here, PM me and let me know.

My suggestion is to put it up here and let the community help.

[CanadianAmy]

Please post it, any and all comments are apprecitated.

Thank you for your help!

[Redd]

Hey, I just replayed your KQo hand in PT, and I thought you had to call 2 cold on the flop for some reason. Postflop was fine, the only mistakes you made (IMO) were preflop. I would've raised preflop the first time it came to you, and if your read was anything like mine (I had both the pfr/capper and pf 3bettor at &lt;2% PFR each), I would have likely folded when I had to call 2 more pf.

[malo]

If you play at Party under the same name you post here under, then I've played with you at a couple tables and have some stats on your play. 126 hands.

As I look over the hands and do some replays, I don't see anything too out of line. What jumps out at me is the 12.70 VP$IP and the 3.97 PFR stats.

When I look closer, I see that in this particular batch of hands, you had only one decent pocket pair....jacks. No kings, queens, tens, and only one big ace in the form of AKo. You were definitely getting cold decked.

You do need to see more flops and be more aggressive. But when someone says your PFR should ideally be 9-12%, that doesn't mean you should try to get there all at once. Mine went up slowly and steadily as I gained more confidence.

Started in the 5.5-5.8 range, was thrilled when I broke 6% (and PT rated me TAA), and am just now getting it up around 8%. For what it is worth, I moved to 1/2 a couple weeks ago, and it has been a struggle.....down 100BB. Thank gawd for bonuses and some .50/1.00 winnings. I've made mistakes, most definitely, but a lot of cold cards also. Have started getting more playable hands the past few sessions, and seeing some improvement in results.

I went thru the same thing when I transitioned from .25/.50 to .50/1.00. Then one day I had a great session, got some confidence, and things went uphill from there.

Keep plugging away.....you can do it! Just keep in mind that everyong has downswings, it is not unusual to go down 100-150BB, and there are times when the fish are hitting everything and you are hitting nothing. It will turn around.

[CanadianAmy]

Thank you!

Yes my PP name is CanadianAmy.

I actually play on Eurobet to get rakeback (which has helped a LOT with the recent downswing).

Amy

[benkath1]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, so i need to losen up a LOT. I get that now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't get too carried away with that. Only play hands that you feel comfortable playing after the flop. If you are inexperienced, just start working some in till you get the feel of it.

Good luck. It won't last forever.

[bottomset]

loosening up takes a fair bit of experience, I think most new players will be loosers if they are playing

a 21/12 style preflop, its something that needs to be worked into, most of the hands you add from a 17/8 style are in MP3, CO, BTN ..

seriously a 17/8 style is fine for someone starting out, and will get the money

you are way too tight on the flop though

[Quercus]

[ QUOTE ]
Recently during my skid I have tightened up to try to stop the bleeding and have mostly been playing on the hands that are identified as appropriate for early position (AA – 77, AKs – A8s, AKo – AJo, KQs – KTs, KQo, QJs, QTs, JTs) and then adding more if it is late position and there are 0 to 2 callers in, or to try and steal the blinds.


[/ QUOTE ]

Many others in this thread have counseled you to loosen up.

I wouldn't worry that much about preflop. You can be a winner if you play tightly preflop. You cannot be a winner if you play poorly postflop. Spent your energy figuring out how you are playing non-trivial postflop examples.

Preflop is easier to deal with once you are solid postflop.

[ QUOTE ]
However, I think that I have a serious weakness in my game when dealing with 2 over cards, that don’t hit on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are really no easy rules for dealing with overcards that whiff. SSHE has a decent section on dealing with overcards and I would imagine other books might as well.

Number of opponents, position, pot size, board texture and your odds to improve to best hand all factor in how you decide to play them.

In addition to books, you should be able to find lots of hands where overcards missed.

[J_B]

I'm a tight player. Most of you are LAGs compared to me. My VPIP is about 14 at .5/1 with a PFR of about 7. Here's my graph: www.joesarcade.com/1.jpg (http://www.joesarcade.com/1.jpg)

I have no stats on you. But, I'm guess that you are probably doing the following:

1. Calling too many hands (pay attention to pot odds!)
2. Not protecting your hands enough preflop. Raise hands you would normally call with in late position if noone (or 1 other) person is in. I pickup a lot of pots this way when I pop the flop again.
3. Calling when you should be raising (your probably getting youself on tilt.)


Those are just a few. Post some hands up here where they are marginal. please don't post AA/KK hands, these have been discussed to death and you can't possibly wrong enough to have them make your game a losing game - just keep raising with AA. They are that good.

Review your sessions in PT. Check the hands where you've lost the most $$$. See if you were wrong with your play. Do this after you get done playing or before you start the next day.

Also, you still have a long way to go, you can pull out of this.

Lastly, maybe play at another site for a bit. I know when I'm doing really bad at Party/skins sometimes I go on tilt just logging on.

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a tight player. Most of you are LAGs compared to me. My VPIP is about 14 at .5/1 with a PFR of about 7. Here's my graph

[/ QUOTE ]

I prefer "I'm a weaktight player leaving money on the table compared to you guys"

1/2 beat you down? why haven't you moved up yet?

[J_B]

At 1/2 I had an amazingly bad run over the vourse of a week, maybe 2. www.joesarcade.com/2.jpg (http://www.joesarcade.com/2.jpg) Note the drop from +200 to -90. Once that happened I went back to .5/1 and tried some new things. Loosened up a little bit - Mostly raising more of the hands I'd play anyhow preflop.

[moot]

In the dark...

Okay, I'm going to be blunt and it's going to sound rude but it's the truth and in the end it's meant to be helpful rather than offensive.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=micro&amp;Number=2613115&amp;Forum =

These hands are downright AWFUL. They are horrible. They really are, and once again I'm not trying to be insulting, only realistic. You were playing the board in the first hand and you called a raise, do you even realize that?

FORGET POKER TRACKER. Come back to it later on. Your fundamentals are just plain wrong. I see PT as a way for solid players to fix smaller leaks and boost their profits even more. You need to build the basics first.

And yes, PT is also a way to get reads on other players, but once again I would say that this is for already solid players.

Read SSH and read it again and then read it again. If you're stuggling with it then pick up Getting Started and see if that helps. And for each concept make sure you understand WHY, and feel free to ask for clarification.

Most of all you need to become a thinking player. On each street, think about what you're doing and why. And when you look over a hand history, consider what the person is doing and why. And when you post your own hands for comment, before anyone else replies you should have already explained what you're doing and why. It's been checked to me, do I check or bet and why? It's been bet into me, do I call or raise of fold and why? What are my pot odds? What are my implied odds? What is my pot equity, and should I raise for value or perhaps to buy outs or a free card? What types of players are in the hand against me and do I have any reads on them? Etc, etc.

All of these need to be going through your head EVERY hand, and when you post a hand or read a hand once again you should be considering them and weighing every option at every street.

Sorry, but you're losing at poker because you're bad at poker. But that can be fixed. We're all at different stages and we're all trying to help each other improve.

EDIT ==

Looking through some of your comments, it seems like you may struggle with the idea of, "Once the money is in the pot it no longer belongs to you."

This is one that I too stuggle with on occasion.

So you raise with AK and you completely missed and it's been bet and called and reraised and you have only overcards and no backdoor outs...

So you fold. It doesn't matter that you raised preflop or that you had the best hand preflop. No one cares. The only thing you have to consider now is whether or not (based on your reads and the odds, etc) you still belong in the hand. And you don't, so you fold. Simple as that.

[no1super2001]

As promised, I looked at PT stats. I have 3 hands posted below, 1 winner and 2 negative winners. For 87 hands (no sample size comments, please) your VP$IP was 10.34, decent aggression numbers. Way too tight! When you play that tight, you are only playing unimaginative hands, and certainly missing a number of opportunities.

Another thing you need to realize, the table was full of tight aggressive and tight-passive/aggressive players. In 62 hands for myself, I won 4 preflop pots with just a raise.

This was bonus clearing time, so there are some tight players at the tables. Your strategy has to adapt. I have experienced similar downturns during bonus periods because of the change in the table dynamics. Do you have Poker Tracker? Do you use the game time display? It helps to show your opponents tendencies when you may not be concentrating on just one table.


[ QUOTE ]
Ok, so i need to losen up a LOT. I get that now.

Is the SSHE 'Tight' Starting Hand Chart appropriate.

[/ QUOTE ]

If in doubt, just use the tight chart for a while. Follow it implicitly, and your numbers will come up to the 18-20% range. Once you are comfortable, you will not need the chart. Just do not be afraid to make use of the tools available to you.

Below are the three hands that are in my db. For discussion.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB :<font color="#CC3333">At_wits_end</font> calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">At_wits_end bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, At_wits_end calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
At_wits_end checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, At_wits_end calls.

River: (6.25 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
At_wits_end checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, At_wits_end calls.

Final Pot: 8.25 BB


Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls, BB :<font color="#CC3333">At_wits_end</font> calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">At_wits_end bets</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, SB folds.

Turn: (5 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">At_wits_end bets</font>, MP2 calls.

River: (7 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
At_wits_end checks, MP2 checks.

Final Pot: 7 BB


Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB :<font color="#CC3333">At_wits_end</font> completes, BB checks.

Flop: (3 SB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">At_wits_end bets</font>, BB folds, MP3 calls.

Turn: (2.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">At_wits_end </font>bets, MP3 calls.

River: (4.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">At_wits_end bets</font>, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 6.50 BB

Good Luck!

[moot]

nvm, misread...

And yes, I think these are much eaiser to talk about with hole cards (if possible).

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
Follow it implicitly, and your numbers will come up to the 18-20% range

[/ QUOTE ]

I coulda swore it put you at something like 16/7 give or take a little for table conditions

do you have the hole cards for her hands there?

[J_B]

Moot, wouldn't you also suggest amy to review the hands played in PT to see where she is losing?

Also, Amy, I might suggest a possible move down in limits if you can't affors to lose like this. Possible move to UB .25/.50 games. This would at least cost you 1/2 as much to learn. If you do consider this, be sure to setup rakeback!

[J_B]

1 more thing too, If you havent read SSHE (Small Stakes Holdem by Ed Miller) Get it and READ it before you play again. The information contain will pay itself back TIME AND TIME again. Also suggest Theory of Poker and a few others.

[moot]

[ QUOTE ]
Moot, wouldn't you also suggest amy to review the hands played in PT to see where she is losing?

[/ QUOTE ]

At this point, no. I'm pretty sure Amy's losing everywhere, because from what I've seen her postflop play is just plain BAD.

Invidual starting hands are the least of her worry right now. Let's save that for a month or two down the road.

EDIT ==

Though if you mean posting specific hands from Poker Tracker for discussion then, yes, that's a good idea. But as for agonizing over specific PT stats or certain starting hands I think it's wasted energy as this point. Gotta learn to crawl before you can walk.

[J_B]

Good point, I thought about that too, just wanted you to respond.

We are here to help, Amy, remember criticism is contructive /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Please though do yourself a huge favor, before you play another hand, read the books! Go to the bookstore today! You've certainly come here because you knew wanted to learn more. now we need to get you in the right direction, you know /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

And, be sure to concentrate on POT ODDS. This is perhaps the most important aspect of poker to learn. be sure to learn how to play ABC poker before you get fancy.

[no1super2001]

[ QUOTE ]
nvm, misread...

[/ QUOTE ]

????

It was really late when I posted this, sorry about the hold cards.

Hand 1. A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
Hand 2. Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
Hand 3. 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I will edit hands above.