john cole may be a commie :)

[brad]

he said something like constitution gives us right to bear arms.

this is the problem with educatino nowadyas.

everyeone knows the bill of rights merely enumerates our god given rights which human beings have intrinsically.

the government does not give us any rights! the whole constitution is a limitation on government's rights , so to speak.

think about the removal of god from society in this light.

think about that and research if you dont understand that.

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also about shootings stopped at schools there was a school shooting last year in the news except media didnt report that students (it was university or techinical college or something) stopped gunman by drawing down on the guy and ordering him to drop it, which he did.

it was a long time ago (months to a year) so i cant provide a link but im 100% sure as i heard it on radio and it was in a local newspaper i read online.

[Ray Zee]

you are so right brad. the govt. does not give us rights. it is there to regulate for our good things that individuals cant control. like roads, mass transportation, national defense, schools, etc. not what we do in our homes or thoughts.

i agree john is a commie, and should be sent back wherever he came from. just kidding, for those idiots that always believe what they read.

[John Cole]

brad,

I was following you until you slipped in the phrase "god given."

John

[andyfox]

All right, it's late, I'm tired, and the vicodin is kicking in.

Sorry, John. I did nominate you for president in another thread. And I was serious there.

[nicky g]

there is no such thing as "natural", "intrinsic" or "god-given" rights - perhaps god gave us rights but there's no way to prove it and it's unreasonable to expect non-religious people to agree to basic laws on the basis that god gave them to us. rights are what the people agree that everyone is entitled to. they can change depending on local outlooks. for instance, the US's refusal to sign up to the international convention on the rights of the child (along with Somalia).

[brad]

endowed by our creator with inalienable rights ...

well i guess you really are a commie.

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We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

[John Cole]

brad,

". . .deriving their power from the consent of the governed"

John

[nicky g]

Why are you so stuck in the 1950s - pinkos under every bed? There are other forms of dissent, you know. Are all atheists commies because they don't believe in such a creator? You can be a supporter of the Bill of Rights without believing rights are god-given if you have the intelligence not to take everything you read absolutely literally. At the time of writing non-whites adn women weren't held to be equal, and i doubt if the authors of the Bill meant them to be either - should we hold on to those traditions too?

[ripdog]

Somehow, I doubt that brad is as afraid of the commies as he is of those who would dismantle the constitution. If you read more of his posts, you'll probably come to the conclusion that the 50's is exactly where brad doesn't want to go (but where we seem to be headed anyway).

[brad]

so if our elected representatives vote to repeal the bill of rights (aka patriot act/ homeland security, but for didactic pruposes lets say const. amendments) then we dont have any fundamental rights?

[brad]

of course.

other topics is stuff to talk about at the table, so 'commie' gives you a lot of leeway where you want to take the conversation. (or even which side you want to be on depending on how you frame it)

[John Cole]

brad,

Yes, we have fundamental rights; those rights, however, are not parcellled out to human beings by a deity.

John

[Ray Zee]

yea john, brad includes rights from god, but thats his ball of wax. its not who gives us those rights as that they are our rights that shouldnt be taken lightly or taken away. the only ones that can take them away are other people in power that need to control in the name of the good of all. the more leeway we give to govt. to control our lives through the taking of rights or so called liberties, the bigger the snowball gets as it rolls and the harder it is to stop.