Donkbetted into, A-high, paired flop.

[Grisgra]

I'll post without comments for now, except to say that the fact that I had to overcall on the flop disturbed me . . .

I was new to the table and had zero reads on the flop donkbetter.


Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: "Hero" is CO with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">"Hero" raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, "Hero" calls, SB folds.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, "Hero" checks.

River: (5.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG folds, "Hero" calls.

Final Pot: 7.50 BB

[aflaba]

I'd fold on the flop.

There is already one caller.
Were you planning to fold the turn unimproved to a bet? I guess so.
With the risk of someone having 9, or you dominated I wouldn't draw with AT.
It just doesn't feel profitable with the caller.

On the river I think you can raise and fold to a three-bet /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ISF]

What street is in question? Id play every street the same. I guess you could consider a river raise, but vs an unknown looks fine.

[Lurker4]

I'd also call the flop. I dunno about 10/20, but at 5/10 these donkbets on this kind of board can frequently mean a 4, small pair, or even just two random cards/Ace high. UTG's call doesn't scare me at all, as many will correctly call here with two overcards to the 4. Does anyone else bet the turn, after BB checks a seemingly harmless turn card? I'd have bet the turn, folded ot a c/r, and checked behind on the river. There is a chance you are ahead on the turn.

[Nigel]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd also call the flop. I dunno about 10/20, but at 5/10 these donkbets on this kind of board can frequently mean a 4, small pair, or even just two random cards/Ace high. UTG's call doesn't scare me at all, as many will correctly call here with two overcards to the 4. Does anyone else bet the turn, after BB checks a seemingly harmless turn card? I'd have bet the turn, folded ot a c/r, and checked behind on the river. There is a chance you are ahead on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are going to be checkraised here quite a bit. You gave too much information about your hand on the flop.

Better to play the hand the way he played it I think, although I think I'd just fold the flop unless I have good reads.

I have to question your comment about correctly calling with 2 overcards to the 4... unless UTG is an ultra-donk, he's not calling that flop with 2 overcards to a 4 with the pre-flop raiser to act after him, is he? I think we have to give him credit for more of a hand than that.

Nigel

[StellarWind]

If UTG has his flop call you don't have yours.

If BB has a nine you are throwing your money away. If BB has a pair then the threat presented by the other players makes chasing him incorrect. Note that the flop could easily be checkraised. Even if BB is betting two cards into the whole field you will usually lose somehow to someone.

No reads on anyone? I'm out of here.

[Grisgra]

If you found yourself on the river in my position, do you raise?

[krishanleong]

posting blind.

Raise the flop.

Since you didn't bet the turn with the intention of taking a free showdown.

Definitely raise the river.

Krishan

[krishanleong]

Looks like I'm rusty. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Krishan

[Lurker4]

[ QUOTE ]
I have to question your comment about correctly calling with 2 overcards to the 4... unless UTG is an ultra-donk, he's not calling that flop with 2 overcards to a 4 with the pre-flop raiser to act after him, is he? I think we have to give him credit for more of a hand than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this really true? I don't have a ton of hands at 5/10, but from what I've observed your average 5/10 player will call the flop bet in this spot in a raised pot w/two overcards to the 4. From what I've read about the 10/20 game, I was under the impression that the players are of comparable looseness, although also more aggressive.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
If you found yourself on the river in my position, do you raise?

[/ QUOTE ]
Tough decision without a read.

It's pretty obvious that you either hit your ace or you busted completely. So aside from a complete bluff why would he bet a worse hand? Checkcalling will collect from worse aces and pick up some bluffs without taking any risk. Even if he does bet a small pair you may not collect on your raise.

Villain also has to fear UTG playing an ace.

Raising a good player is completely wrong.

Of course most players are pretty bad and are likely to bet the river. Whatever the motive behind the flop bet--small pair or bluff--it has come back into season after the turn checked through. He's also much more likely to make a bad call of the raise.

It's your guess.

Note that if the board were 9643A I would object to a raise. Too often this pattern means he now has aces up and wants to 3-bet.

[Grisgra]

Yeah, you really threw me for a loop there /images/graemlins/smile.gif. But raising the flop definitely occurred to me.

[Grisgra]

I'm inclined to agree with Lurker -- I was bothered by UTG's call, but not super-disturbed, as plenty will call here with any two overcards to a '4'. I have been simply stunned at how many people at 10/20 will call a flop with just about any two cards (two overcards to two of the three cards on the flop + a backdoor draw, one overcard to the flop, etc. etc.)

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
If you found yourself on the river in my position, do you raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes