Double Shoot Out Hand

[woodguy]

Now that Johnny Bax and Shaniac are in Vegas, I figure maybe I can win one of these. (for a while it seemed my starting table always had one of those two at it)

What is your line after the flop check raise?

What do you put the BB on?

He paid the $172 entry fee for the tourney, that is all I know about him.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t1420)
Button (t1460)
SB (t1530)
BB (t1860)
UTG (t2170)
UTG+1 (t1620)
MP1 (t810)
MP2 (t900)
MP3 (t1730)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t80</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls t60.

Flop: (t170) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t100</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to t400</font>,

Hero???

I figure that AA,KK probably re-raise PF, but you never know.
I can see JJ and AK flat calling this PF, as well as some weaker A's and flush draws.

I figure if I re-raise I'm commited to the felt.

To those who say push, please give me your hand range for the villian.


Regards,
Woodguy

[augie00]

[ QUOTE ]
He paid the $172 entry fee for the tourney, that is all I know about him.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are $5 rebuy sats to these double shootouts. So you don't know that for sure.

Gosh, I don't know. It would appear that QT would would smooth call this, although there is a flush draw out there...AQ is VERY likely here I think, AT is likely as well but not as much. I think after thinking about it for a minute or so I would painfully lay it down.

[woodguy]

[ QUOTE ]
There are $5 rebuy sats to these double shootouts. So you don't know that for sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

I open the list of winners from the sat and mark everyone who got in via sat, so yes, I do know that for sure. /images/graemlins/grin.gif


I'm having trouble making a case for a raise here, glad to see I'm not the only one (so far)

Thanks,
Woodguy

[locutus2002]

I would call and wait to see the turn.

I think its unlikely that villain has you beat. Its more likely that villain has a big drawing hand or a drawing hand with an ace.

If a brick hits on the turn its an easy push, otherwise you can make a tough decision later, and you're no worse than if you got them all in ATF.

[augie00]

[ QUOTE ]
I open the list of winners from the sat and mark everyone who got in via sat, so yes, I do know that for sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, that is dedication!

[woodguy]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, that is dedication!

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, when someone re-raises me, its nice to know if they are a $5 winner or they have the roll to buy in.

Once I get my table, I usually have everyone marked before the first hand. Its simple really.

Regards,
Woodguy

[woodguy]

[ QUOTE ]
I would call and wait to see the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting line.

It honestly never crossed my mind to call.

If you call and he leads the turn for 2/3 pot after a brick falls, do you come over top?

Regards,
Woodguy

[italianstang]

[ QUOTE ]
I would call and wait to see the turn.

If a brick hits on the turn its an easy push, otherwise you can make a tough decision later, and you're no worse than if you got them all in ATF.

[/ QUOTE ]

This does not really give any information about what is going to happen, especially since the villain acts first. What if the turn is a 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and the villain moves all in? What if it is another ace and he moves all in? What if its a queen? The problem with calling is that it does not narrow down hand ranges at all AND calling is a huge chunk of the stack.

Too easy to be up against AK and there are not that many chips in the pot and even if you are a favorite, like you are against AT, you still aren't going to know if you are beat until your chips are all in.

[augie00]

[ QUOTE ]
If a brick hits on the turn its an easy push, otherwise you can make a tough decision later, and you're no worse than if you got them all in ATF.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is it an easy push if a brick falls on the turn. Wouldn't that mean that it was an easy push on the flop as well? And it certainly isn't an easy push on the flop.

And you can't call on the flop and decide to fold on the turn if nobody improves. That would just be a waste of 300 chips.

[MLG]

I would call the flop. If the turn is a scare card (club/4th broadway) I would fold if he makes a real bet. Otherwise I would push over whatever bet he makes. Hopefully you now tie him to whatever worse made hand he has, while getting the money in better if he is drawing. You aren't getting away anyway if he outflopped you. The downside is that sometimes you might fold the best hand on the turn. However, I can't see that happening too often really.

[woodguy]

Thank you all.

I did the wrong thing, and re-raised all in, only to be called by AK.

I showed him my superior skillz by rivering a J. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I hated my re-raise even before he called, because I'm only getting called when beat. I have to go back to playing with my hand off the mouse, instead of allowing emotion to get involved.

SInce quitting smoking (used to smoke 1 1/2 pack/day) I have had steam control issues with my game. Its not fun.

I think that a flat call at least allows me to get another bet out of a hand that I am beating if they lead the turn, or get away (maybe incorrectly someitmes) if a scare card falls and he bets.

I don't think I check behind a turn check as it would make me put him on a club draw and I would push.

Any other thoughts or disagreements with what I said here?

Regards,
Woodguy

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
I would call the flop. If the turn is a scare card (club/4th broadway) I would fold if he makes a real bet. Otherwise I would push over whatever bet he makes. Hopefully you now tie him to whatever worse made hand he has, while getting the money in better if he is drawing. You aren't getting away anyway if he outflopped you. The downside is that sometimes you might fold the best hand on the turn. However, I can't see that happening too often really.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, and results aside, I don't think he has you beat most of the time. He may be a moron but I think we can discount QT. Other than that, AK/JJ are certainly possibilities, but so is AQ, other pair + Q, pair + T...you're just not behind enough to fold at any point without a bad turn card.

[woodguy]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think he has you beat most of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't come up with a range that c/r's here that I'm ahead of, unless I include a bunch of 2 clubs combos.

This hand confuses the crap out of me.

I know I cannot fold here, but I cannot come up with a range of hands that c/r here that I'm ahead of enough to go to the felt. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

What's your hand range that has me ahead a majority of the time.

Regards,
Woodguy

[adanthar]

You're behind exactly AK/JJ because I am pretty much ignoring AA-KK and QT as options. We can add in the 1 AA combo if he's feeling really frisky.

You're ahead of AQ, KQ, QJ (a flip with Q /images/graemlins/club.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif ), any hand with a T in it (AT), and flush draws. Many of these hands are going to automatically semibluff this board since you fold enough to make it worth while. Even if he can *only* have AQ, there's eight combos of that, six of AK and three JJ's so you're right to do this 8/17 of the time /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[woodguy]

[ QUOTE ]
You're ahead of AQ, KQ, QJ (a flip with Q J ), any hand with a T in it (AT), and flush draws. Many of these hands are going to automatically semibluff this board since you fold enough to make it worth while. Even if he can *only* have AQ, there's eight combos of that, six of AK and three JJ's so you're right to do this 8/17 of the time

[/ QUOTE ]

I appreciate your effort with the #'s.

I allowed for all AA/KK as I will often get funky and smooth call these against steal position raises often,. I think that's why I had to add a bunch of club combos to make this a call.

Thanks again.
Woodguy