J9s..ante up!!

[benkath1]

2 hands against villain.

Everybody's in so I thought about raising preflop for control of the hand, but liked a cheap flop instead.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif. UTG posts a blind of $0.5.
UTG (poster) checks, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero checks.

Flop: (8.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(8 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero calls.


Value bet str8 draw? Figured a 10 or Q would clean up some outs for me.


Turn: (6.25 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (8.25 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks.

Take a stab? I couldn't see a Q or T folding.

Final Pot: 8.25 BB

[atnels]

I like UTG posting.

I don't think I'd raise this preflop OOP.

Depending on the nature of the table, you might consider checking the flop. You have a snazzy draw, but if the table is on the tighter-side postflop, the last thing you want to happen is what did; somebody in EP raising you and causing everyone else to call two cold. Ideally, someone in EP bets and then you can raise 5-6 callers with you equity edge.

I'm confused by your reasoning on betting to clean up outs.

[@bsolute_luck]

i'm wondering about the flop bet really. could you or someone explain why it would be better to bet out than check here?

the pot is pretty large, so flush draws and probably most pocket pairs of any kind are staying in and have outs to beat our straight. even if our straight comes in, 2 of our outs are /images/graemlins/heart.gif and complete a flush. hard to believe this flop didn't connect with someone. doubtful we're buying any outs as we're behind to any Ten/Q already, so folding overcards doesn't really do anything, besides we want them to connect if our straight comes in- the only overs we want out that may fold is the A and K of /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

now maybe we can c/r a bet from late position or something?

[benkath1]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm confused by your reasoning on betting to clean up outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking higher spades on bdfd, but I guess it doesn't make much sense. I like the c/r line much better.

Thanks.

[atnels]

The pot really isn't that big, ~8 SB on the flop.

Why would we want to c/r a bet from LP? If it gets checked around to the button who bets, I think just calling is the best line unless you know the table is full of calling stations who'll cold call 2 just as easily as they'd call 1 SB.

If pocket pairs are staying in trying to hit a set getting like 8:1, more power to them.

[kapw7]

This is a hand I would raise PF against 8 limpers. I would also check the flop and call or raise if I can get more bets in the flop. Usually fold if it is 2 bets back to me unless the pot gets really big. I don't think a river bluff will work here as there are so many possible hands that UTG+1 can have and call with. You can always try though.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
The pot really isn't that big, ~8 SB on the flop.

Why would we want to c/r a bet from LP? If it gets checked around to the button who bets, I think just calling is the best line unless you know the table is full of calling stations who'll cold call 2 just as easily as they'd call 1 SB.

If pocket pairs are staying in trying to hit a set getting like 8:1, more power to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm not saying we would c/r, i was just asking. my point in my post was to ask whether it would be best to bet out or check/call. i think check/call and i listed the reasons i thought of.

[Disconnected]

Nice hand, although I disagree with your reasoning on the flop. The bet is fine as a value bet, but you don't really want to "clean up outs."

UTG+1 has shown strength throughout the hand, so I doubt you'd bluff him out on the river. If he would have checked the turn, I might have tried a bluff (but then the pot would be smaller, so maybe not).

[dawade]

maybe this is just me being dumb but when you say "clean up outs" are you talking about trying to figure out exactly what the opponent is holding and what you're drawing against like say a flush or a Q or T?

[benkath1]

[ QUOTE ]
maybe this is just me being dumb but when you say "clean up outs" are you talking about trying to figure out exactly what the opponent is holding and what you're drawing against like say a flush or a Q or T?

[/ QUOTE ]

No my thought was if he raised it would fold bigger spades if my flush came in. I now realize that I had enough equity in the hand that i don't want anybody to fold, so if I hit my str8 I would win a bigger pot.

Thanks for all responses. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[@bsolute_luck]

bump. i would like to hear if/why betting out on this flop is for value or how to think about this flop because i think check/call is a better line.

[benkath1]

[ QUOTE ]
bump. i would like to hear if/why betting out on this flop is for value or how to think about this flop because i think check/call is a better line.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really like check call. With OESD and BDFD I feel my hand is better than most of my opponnents. I want to charge them for their weaker draws either by betting the flop or check raising the flop. I now see that I should take a slightly different approach to this. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Entity]

I would tend to check this flop with 8 players in the hand; where the bet comes from will determine my raise/call frequency.

An 8-handed QTT twotone flop is almost never getting checked through.

Rob

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
I would tend to check this flop with 8 players in the hand; where the bet comes from will determine my raise/call frequency.

An 8-handed QTT twotone flop is almost never getting checked through.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

could you help me out with understanding how to look at whether to raise or call a bet? i asked about c/r a raise from LP, but maybe that isn't right. what are you thoughts? thnx.