Party 20/40: The Michael Davis flop Check/Raise

[Jeff W]

Opponent is a multitabling tight/aggressive(19/8 over 200). It's not a shorthanded table, but I felt it was appropriate to post here.

Party 20/40 (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Ah, 5d.
4 folds, CO raises, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 6h, 6s, Ts (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero raises, CO calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 6d (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

Plan is to bet fold any non-T river.

[SlyGuy]

I don't get it.

[cartman]

I like the postflop if your opponent is capable of folding Ace high. If not I think check-call on the river is best because he will never fold a hand you can beat. If he has something worse than A hi he will probably fold it or raise and make you fold. It seems like the river bet can only hurt you. Check-calling may induce a bluff out of a worse hand.

If you didn't CR the flop what would be your next choice of a line?

Do you typically defend your big blind with Ax versus a steal raise? What if it came from UTG? What if there are other player(s) besides the raiser in the pot?

Thanks,
Cartman

[imported_ncray]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I am understanding correctly, it's not about hero's cards, but what hero puts villain on. Villain's pfr-stealing standards are not likely to have hit that flop, but still may be ahead of hero's a-x weak kicker. Hero is representing a hand, such as the 10, to get villain to fold. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Ponks]

I have a hard time believing he's going to fold ace-high here on the river, especially with the 6 turn, so I'd check/call the river. I like this line though.

Ponks

[helpmeout]

This is a bad flop for you, I dump it. (I usually dont defend much with Ax anymore)

Paired boards are unlikely to scare any decent ace, when he calls the turn you are beat.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a bad flop for you, I dump it. (I usually dont defend much with Ax anymore)

Paired boards are unlikely to scare any decent ace, when he calls the turn you are beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

what would be a better flop for hero in this spot besides flopping an ace?

[helpmeout]

one with a 5 or rags at least they are bluffable.

Paired board flops are too likely to miss making a good ace unfoldable, especially at this level.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
one with a 5 or rags at least they are bluffable.

Paired board flops are too likely to miss making a good ace unfoldable, especially at this level.

[/ QUOTE ]

why do you think hero's CR is a bluff? who says villain has a better ace?

[helpmeout]

19/8 is pretty weak, I doubt he is going to steal with trash from CO.

Assuming I play this hand preflop(without 3betting), I'd bet out on the flop making it much easier for overcards to fold.

Checkraising puts more money in the pot, he sees the turn and from there will probably call down with an ace + overcard, sometimes he will raise you forcing you to dump anything marginal or he will fold if he thinks you rarely bluff.

[waffle]

I did a little test using my CO open-raising standards:

55+ A2s+ A8o+ K7s+ KTo+ Q9s+ QTo+ JTs

According to the stove, A5 has ~33% pot equity on this 66T flop versus those standards.

[Ryno]

Unless you are intentionally trying to lose money, there is no other line that loses more than this one with A5, when it's beat. If he was going to fold a marginal but better hand, he would have done that on the turn. What could he call with on the turn but fold on the river, that beats what you have? Think of it from the other side, if you are the CO with 44 and you call the river, and you see A5 in the hand history, what do you put as a note?

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
one with a 5 or rags at least they are bluffable.

Paired board flops are too likely to miss making a good ace unfoldable, especially at this level.

[/ QUOTE ]

why do you think hero's CR is a bluff? who says villain has a better ace?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he just means, that whenever you checkraise a paired flop, the only thing you get credit for is that you DONT have the trips, so ususually any ace isnt folding.

[Michael Davis]

Isn't your opponent just too tight for this? It definitely matters that this is not a shorthanded table, as your opponent may not have a wide enough range of openraising hands. However, it should be obvious that no matter what line you take here with a ragged ace it's a nightmare.

I am a big fan of doing this over threebetting preflop, but I think it is much stronger on unpaired flop as the range of hands you can plausibly represent gets much higher. Not only are you missing a third possible paired card, but since nobody's giving your credit for a 6 even though this is how one should be played, you are really representing only a T or a flush draw here.

-Michael

[bakku]

I'd consider checkraising a non-A/5/paint river.

[deepsquat]

I think hero's hand will be best on the turn more often than not.

[krishanleong]

posting blind.

I don't mind the flop and turn play. It's tough to make this play on a paired board because a good player will know it's a good board to make a move on and will be more likely to call you down with a big ace. That being said, I think the only question is the river bet.

I would be more selective than any non-ten river. But I think if the opponent is the right kind, a river bet can show a profit.

Krishan

[StellarWind]

Reminder to other posters that Villain is sitting at a full-ring table and should be expected to have full-ring stats. So 19/8 over only 200 hands is consistent with a normal TAG although he may be tight/typical instead.

Calling preflop against this player seems pretty loose.

[ QUOTE ]
Plan is to bet fold any non-T river.

[/ QUOTE ]
Obviously you cannot fold a six, ace, or five either.

If you bet the river it must be because you hope a king will call. I guess that's possible. With the ten playing as your kicker you are way past having any bluff equity.

I check-call the river. The value here is so slim that any risk of a bluff checkraise is too much. You may also collect an occasional bluff or undeserved free showdown.

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Plan is to bet fold any non-T river.

[/ QUOTE ]
Obviously you cannot fold a six, ace, or five either.

If you bet the river it must be because you hope a king will call. I guess that's possible. With the ten playing as your kicker you are way past having any bluff equity.

I check-call the river. The value here is so slim that any risk of a bluff checkraise is too much. You may also collect an occasional bluff or undeserved free showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

I must confess that I wasn't actually going to bet-fold most rivers. I was going to check-call a non-A/6/5 river and bet-call or bet 3-bet all of those appropriately. I put the line about bet folding in there to generate discussion on whether such a bet had any fold equity vs. better/splitting hands.

[mperich]

[ QUOTE ]
I put the line about bet folding in there to generate discussion on whether such a bet had any fold equity vs. better/splitting hands.


[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. I think check/call and check/fold are pretty close on the river as well. Blank river of course.

-Mike