Donktastic AKs

[AdamL]

UTG is a considerably passive player who plays about 75% of their hands. UTG+2 is LAGging it up, perhaps trying too hard to isolate the donkey UTG. The other fellow to know about, MP2, is the type of guy who knows to raise decent hands preflop but is quite passive after the preflop.

I put UTG on a weaker ace on the flop, improving on the turn, and I have no idea what MP2 has.

The fourth heart on the river is fugly, you have a guy behind you to act, and a normally timid passive player is donking it up. What do you do?

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (15.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 calls, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (11.75 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+2 folds, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

River: (14.75 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[Jakesta]

I would raise the turn.

I would also call the river against the stupid fishie.

[ClaytonN]

I'm all for raising the turn and calling down to a non-heart river

[AdamL]

What's the turn raise for?

Agree you call a non-heart river. What about the heart?

[Shillx]

This river is a raise/fold spot. There are so many problems with raising here that I would fold. Flat calling the river is the worst of all possible choices imo. I would also raise the turn in this hand and fold to a 3-bet.

Brad

[Jakesta]

What's wrong with calling this river?

[istewart]

I didn't see it this way the first time, but I think for two reasons he said that. You may (slight chance) still have the donkbettor. But you would like to fold hands like the 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif or two-pair hands behind you.

Often this backfires bigtime at $.5/1, I would imagine.

[SteveL91]

[ QUOTE ]
What's wrong with calling this river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably because there's a player left to act, who has been calling down the entire hand. I suspect the thinking behind raising the river is you might get that player left to act to fold a hand that beats you, but I don't know that it would work often enough to make it the correct play. If that's not the thinking, then I'm not sure.

[AdamL]

Is the turn raise only to try and fold out MP2 if he has a baby /images/graemlins/heart.gif?

I don't think UTG is betting a four-flush &amp; pair here. Not that sophisticated, and too passive.

Assuming my understanding above is correct, how small would the pot have to be before calling the turn rather than raising is best?

[SteveL91]

I think the smaller the pot, the more inclined you should be to fold. On this hand, if it were HU, I'd call the river, but with that player lurking after you, I'd fold.

[AdamL]

Bunp.

Still want to know your reasoning here Brad. Sounds interesting.

[AdamL]

I fold. Next guy calls. Donkey turns AJo (no heart), and MP mucks. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Jakesta]

This is why you call the river. /images/graemlins/frown.gif I just don't agree with Shill's raise or fold logic. Calling here is fine.

[djg40]

Then what do you do when MP2 raises?

[TomBrooks]

I call one more bet on the river getting 15:1 or 16:1 if MP2 comes along. I figure I might win this one time out of 15. Probably won't win it any more than that though. You note UTG is a passive player, so he probably has a /images/graemlins/heart.gif since he is betting out every round. Probably I'm calling this because if I lost to a bluffing weak ace I would be so pissed that it would make me crazy, but I suspect calling is probably slightly -EV even getting 15:1.

Edit note: After seeing the result, I must say I would have been amazed but so pleased to have won. What a donktastic hand!

[dozer]

I think why shillx said this is a raise or fold on the river because this is a situation where you do not want any overcallers. If you think you have the bettor beat then raisng is clearly the best play because you get rid of any low hearts by raising this river, but since you are not confident that hero has the bettor beat then in this situation folding is better.

You are being results orientated. Just because the OP folded the best hand doesn't make calling the correct play. It is a correct fold on the river IMO.

[SCfuji]

fear a check raise more than a turn lead. pop this villain on the turn as you likely have the best hand, hopefully make the river decision easier, give the worst but still correct odds for those 1-card flush draws and you probably have the best hand still.

the way you played this im not folding top pair. with this in mind i will consider either calling or raising.

i like calling here.

if the mp dude raises a bettor and a caller on that river we can muck.
the few hearts that we can clean out by raising on the river could possibly fold anyways, but the higher middle hearts will most likely not fold. i just dont see an unknown here folding for this pot even if it is 2 bets. he will see "oh i have the nine of hearts. that could be good so ill call and pray that i win". if hero raises and gets reraised we lose one more bet than we would have lost if we had just called and gotten raised, but we find out the same info (i think~).

[Jakesta]

[ QUOTE ]
Then what do you do when MP2 raises?

[/ QUOTE ]

I call one and fold to another.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold. Next guy calls. Donkey turns AJo (no heart), and MP mucks. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Bad post.