Baseball Ruling. I'm calling for Gary Cohen's resignation on 660am

[Cornell Fiji]

During the 5th inning of tonights Mets game the Mets had the bases loaded with 1 out.

Ramon Castro was on 3rd, Kaz Ishii on 2nd, Reyes on 1st, and Miguel Cairo was at the plate.

Cairo hit a long fly ball to left field.

Castro tagged and jogged down the 3rd baseline toward home. Garret Anderson, having no play on Castro, threw the ball in to 2nd base to try to get Ishii who was correctly halfway between 2nd and 3rd on the ball.

The ball rolled by the 2nd baseman covering but had the ball gotten to 2nd it would have been before Castro had crossed the plate.

Gary Cohen, the Mets announcer said that Castro should have been hustling down the line because if the ball had gotten to 2nd the run would not have counted. He went on to say that the replay showed that Castro was jogging and yes, the ball would have arrived at 2nd base before he would have scored so Castro could have cost the Mets a run...

He continued on this train of thought for 3 minutes before I got sick and turned the radio off.

My interpretation of the rules (which I am 99% sure of) is that if the ball had beat Ishii to the base then it is a FORCE PLAY! If the ball beat Ishii and he was out before tagging up then it wouldnt matter if Willie Wilson himself had been chugging down the line and crossed the plate well before the out was made because its a force play.

I plan on callling in to 660am WFAN tonight calling for Gary Cohen's resignation because he clearly does not understand the game. I know that I am right here but before before I make a scathing call into The Fan (and it will be scathing) I just want to doublecheck so I dont make an ass out of myself.

Please confirm that this is indeed a force and Cohen is an idiot, (or tell me that I don't know what I am talking about.)

If I am indeed correct NJ/NY OOTiots listen for Steve from N.Caldwell calling into WFAN tonight, it should be a good one, I hope I don't get cut off.


-Steve

[istewart]

North Caldwell, eh? Nice.

[etizzle]

you are correct

[James Boston]

[ QUOTE ]
I plan on callling in to 660am WFAN tonight calling for Gary Cohen's resignation

[/ QUOTE ]

That'll show 'em

[Matt Williams]

[ QUOTE ]
During the 5th inning of tonights Mets game the Mets had the bases loaded with 1 out.

Ramon Castro was on 3rd, Kaz Ishii on 2nd, Reyes on 1st, and Miguel Cairo was at the plate.

Cairo hit a long fly ball to left field.

Castro tagged and jogged down the 3rd baseline toward home. Garret Anderson, having no play on Castro, threw the ball in to 2nd base to try to get Ishii who was correctly halfway between 2nd and 3rd on the ball.

The ball rolled by the 2nd baseman covering but had the ball gotten to 2nd it would have been before Castro had crossed the plate.

Gary Cohen, the Mets announcer said that Castro should have been hustling down the line because if the ball had gotten to 2nd the run would not have counted. He went on to say that the replay showed that Castro was jogging and yes, the ball would have arrived at 2nd base before he would have scored so Castro could have cost the Mets a run...

He continued on this train of thought for 3 minutes before I got sick and turned the radio off.

My interpretation of the rules (which I am 99% sure of) is that if the ball had beat Ishii to the base then it is a FORCE PLAY! If the ball beat Ishii and he was out before tagging up then it wouldnt matter if Willie Wilson himself had been chugging down the line and crossed the plate well before the out was made because its a force play.

I plan on callling in to 660am WFAN tonight calling for Gary Cohen's resignation because he clearly does not understand the game. I know that I am right here but before before I make a scathing call into The Fan (and it will be scathing) I just want to doublecheck so I dont make an ass out of myself.

Please confirm that this is indeed a force and Cohen is an idiot, (or tell me that I don't know what I am talking about.)

If I am indeed correct NJ/NY OOTiots listen for Steve from N.Caldwell calling into WFAN tonight, it should be a good one, I hope I don't get cut off.


-Steve

[/ QUOTE ]

Cohen is right. When the LF made the catch, it was the 2nd out of the inning. The out at 2nd would not be a force play, it would have been the 3rd out of the inning. If Castro touches home before the 3rd out is made, the run counts. If he touches home after the 3rd out, it doesn't matter because the inning is over.

[Mike Gallo]

Cohen is right. When the LF made the catch, it was the 2nd out of the inning. The out at 2nd would not be a force play, it would have been the 3rd out of the inning. If Castro touches home before the 3rd out is made, the run counts. If he touches home after the 3rd out, it doesn't matter because the inning is over.

Good explanation, you have semi redeemed yourself.

[Cornell Fiji]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I plan on callling in to 660am WFAN tonight calling for Gary Cohen's resignation

[/ QUOTE ]

That'll show 'em

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't expect my call to accomplish anything except for a laugh from the Mets fans who, like myself, are anguished daily by the inane comments that that man makes.

I just thought of something and would like some help from anyone who was watching the game (because they made no indication of this on the radio but I guess it is possible.) By any chance did Ishii tag and then feign going to 3rd and Anderson threw behind him? I doubt this was the case but would appreciate anyone who watched the game letting me know that this indeed did not happen.

Thanks,
Steve

[Cornell Fiji]

[ QUOTE ]
Cohen is right. When the LF made the catch, it was the 2nd out of the inning. The out at 2nd would not be a force play, it would have been the 3rd out of the inning. If Castro touches home before the 3rd out is made, the run counts. If he touches home after the 3rd out, it doesn't matter because the inning is over.

Good explanation, you have semi redeemed yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]



This is wrong... right? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

When a player fails to tag up it is considered a force play, just as it is considered a force play if a runner misses a base as he is running the bases.

If it is a force play then it doesn't matter if Castro has already crossed the plate because force outs take precident and thus the run would not count.

Your explaniation is the one that Cohen was making, but that I believe is wrong.

[Matt Williams]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Cohen is right. When the LF made the catch, it was the 2nd out of the inning. The out at 2nd would not be a force play, it would have been the 3rd out of the inning. If Castro touches home before the 3rd out is made, the run counts. If he touches home after the 3rd out, it doesn't matter because the inning is over.

Good explanation, you have semi redeemed yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]



This is wrong... right? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

If it is a force play then it doesn't matter if Castro has already crossed the plate because force outs take precident and thus the run would not score.

Your explaniation is the one that Cohen was making, but that I believe is wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, a force play is the first out. For example, lets say you got a guy on first and one out. The hitter hits a ground ball to 3rd and he throws out the runner at 2nd but doesn't get the guy out at 1st. The runner at 1st was forced out. You can't assume the 2nd out. You can only assume the 1st out.

[wh1t3bread]

[ QUOTE ]
This is wrong... right?



[/ QUOTE ]

Not right. That is correct. Castro has to score before that out is made. If the out is made after he crosses the plate it is still a run.

I was watching the game on MLB.TV and I was getting the Angels broadcast. The announcers were saying the same thing. Wait till tomorrow and I'm sure you will have some new material to call in with. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Cornell Fiji]

[ QUOTE ]

No, a force play is the first out. For example, lets say you got a guy on first and one out. The hitter hits a ground ball to 3rd and he throws out the runner at 2nd but doesn't get the guy out at 1st. The runner at 1st was forced out. You can't assume the 2nd out. You can only assume the 1st out.

[/ QUOTE ]


I edited my 1st reply to you.

I think our discrepency is that I believe that a runner not tagging up is considered a force play while you are saying that it is not.

I could have sworn that I am correct here, I am looking at the rules on MLB.com but they are useless... can anyone point me to a rulebook where it says that a player failing to tag is not a force out?

[The4Aces]

runner not tagging is a force play.

Not only is Matt Williams right, but as a Mets fan you may recall that this issue came up on a Sunday night Mets-Yankees game a few years ago. The winning run (Mets) in the bottom of the 9th scored on a sac fly and the runner on 1st (Brian McRae?) was screwing around and there was an argument as to whether he had been "doubled off" first. The whole argument wound up boiling down to whether the run from 3rd scored before the runner was "doubled off", and since it was clear that the run scored before any out at first, the Mets won.

[Matt Williams]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

No, a force play is the first out. For example, lets say you got a guy on first and one out. The hitter hits a ground ball to 3rd and he throws out the runner at 2nd but doesn't get the guy out at 1st. The runner at 1st was forced out. You can't assume the 2nd out. You can only assume the 1st out.

[/ QUOTE ]


I edited my 1st reply to you.

I think our discrepency is that I believe that a runner not tagging up is considered a force play while you are saying that it is not.

I could have sworn that I am correct here, I am looking at the rules on MLB.com but they are useless... can anyone point me to a rulebook where it says that a player failing to tag is not a force out?

[/ QUOTE ]

I tried reading it one time. It's almost more confusing than helpful. Good Luck!

[Matt Williams]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Cohen is right. When the LF made the catch, it was the 2nd out of the inning. The out at 2nd would not be a force play, it would have been the 3rd out of the inning. If Castro touches home before the 3rd out is made, the run counts. If he touches home after the 3rd out, it doesn't matter because the inning is over.

Good explanation, you have semi redeemed yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]



This is wrong... right? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

If it is a force play then it doesn't matter if Castro has already crossed the plate because force outs take precident and thus the run would not score.

Your explaniation is the one that Cohen was making, but that I believe is wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, a force play is the first out. For example, lets say you got a guy on first and one out. The hitter hits a ground ball to 3rd and he throws out the runner at 2nd but doesn't get the guy out at 1st. The runner at 1st was forced out. You can't assume the 2nd out. You can only assume the 1st out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoops! I messed up here. I just described a fielder's choice. I should have said if the 3rd basemen CATCHES the ball and then throws to 1st before the runner can get back, it would be a force play.

[Cornell Fiji]

I have my foot squarely in my mouth...

Thanks for telling me that I was wrong. Gary Cohen does suck but he was right on this one... I will save my calls in to the fan for another day...

here is the rule from MLB.com

[ QUOTE ]
A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner. Confusion regarding this play is removed by remembering that frequently the "force" situation is removed during the play. Example: Man on first, one out, ball hit sharply to first baseman who touches the bag and batter runner is out. The force is removed at that moment and runner advancing to second must be tagged. If there had been a runner on third or second, and either of these runners scored before the tag out at second, the run counts. Had the first baseman thrown to second and the ball then had been returned to first, the play at second was a force out, making two outs, and the return throw to first ahead of the runner would have made three outs. In that case, no run would score. Example: Not a force out. One out. Runner on first and third. Batter flies out. Two out. Runner on third tags up and scores. Runner on first tries to retouch before throw from fielder reaches first baseman, but does not get back in time and is out. Three outs. If, in umpire's judgment, the runner from third touched home before the ball was held at first base, the run counts.

[/ QUOTE ]


Where the quote is from on MLB.com (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/official_info/official_rules/definition_terms_2.jsp)

[HopeydaFish]

Yes, as you discovered, what you described is not a force play. Technically it is an APPEAL play. By throwing the ball to second base, they are appealing that the runner left the bag before the ball was caught. If the run scored before the appeal, the run counts.

Here's a rule that seemed to be on every umpire certification test that I'd taken when I umpired Little League years back:

Same situation as the OP described. However, instead of catching the ball, the outfielder has it bounce off his glove and then juggles it for awhile before finally catching it. The runner had tagged up and run to third when he saw the ball entering the outfielder's glove the first time, but had left the base before the outfielder had control of the ball. The outfielder throws the ball to second base and an appeal is made at second base that the runner had not tagged up properly.

What is the proper call here?

[PhatTBoll]

once the fielder touches it the runner can advance.

[Russ McGinley]

[ QUOTE ]
Same situation as the OP described. However, instead of catching the ball, the outfielder has it bounce off his glove and then juggles it for awhile before finally catching it. The runner had tagged up and run to third when he saw the ball entering the outfielder's glove the first time, but had left the base before the outfielder had control of the ball. The outfielder throws the ball to second base and an appeal is made at second base that the runner had not tagged up properly.

What is the proper call here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe it is the same as a catch. That prevents guys from intentionally bouncing the ball out of the glove and juggling it in his hand or something. This is similar to why there is an infield fly rule, to prevent the infielder from just letting a popup drop and getting an easy DP.

[masse75]

On behalf of all other OOT'ers who don't give a rats ass about NY baseball, I wish you the best of luck.

[The Stranger]

lol. . .I graduated from pro umpire school in '03, where we were quizzed on this type of stuff in written tests and on the field.

I read the first few posts, was planning to set you all straight, and then you guys figured it out yourself. Way to go.

Especially the guy who explained the difference between a force play and an appeal play.

[Dead]

You don't know anything about baseball, no wonder you are a Mets fan. So stick that foot way down your throat Cornell, because IT'S NOT A FORCE PLAY at second.

Force outs are not hard. If the run scores before you get it back at second, he's safe. It happened in 2000 I believe.

[The Stranger]

[ QUOTE ]
You don't know anything about baseball, no wonder you are a Mets fan. So stick that foot way down your throat Cornell, because IT'S NOT A FORCE PLAY at second.

[/ QUOTE ]

you would be shocked how many umpires get this wrong on rule quizzes.

[Dead]

I've never had any umpire training.

Look, here is the point:

I call it a time play. If the guy at third(Castro) can touch home plate before Ishii is out at second, the run counts. That's in the umpire's judgement.

It's totally different from a double play, which is what Cornell may be thinking of. If there's 1 out and a guy on first, and a ball is hit to Jeter who flips to Cano for the out at second, who then flips to Martinez to get the double play, then it doesn't matter whether or not Fat Albert comes home to score from third. He could be Juan [censored] Pierre and it wouldn't matter. Force outs take precedent over runners advancing. But as others have said, this is not a force play.

Didn't see the Mets game in question, but that's how it works.

[The Stranger]

yes, you are absolutely correct.

But most people (including the OP), mistakenly believe that this is a force play. Being this is a common misconception, I think your response to him was too harsh.

[LotsOfOuts69]

Just to note for those who don't listen to Mets games, Gary Cohen is one of the best radio announcers in the sport, I would assume he is right in his thoughts because he has been around for a while and rarely makes a mistake, covering for Bob Murphy's mistakes, who was going senile over the past couple of years.

He is by far and away one of the best announcers in the sport and I would take him over anyone including joe buck and crappy ass tim McCarver.

--LoO

[HopeydaFish]

[ QUOTE ]

I believe it is the same as a catch. That prevents guys from intentionally bouncing the ball out of the glove and juggling it in his hand or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, because otherwise whenever a potential sac fly would occur, outfielders would just juggle the ball all the way into the infield to prevent runners from being allowed to tag up. It would be entertaining to watch, but a travesty of the game. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[RacersEdge]

I don't think that the runner going back to second is a FORCE play. He has no one behind him FORCING him to do anything. - he could go to 2nd or 3rd. I agree with the announcer.

[SHUT UP DEAD]

[ QUOTE ]
You don't know anything about baseball, no wonder you are a Mets fan. So stick that foot way down your throat Cornell, because IT'S NOT A FORCE PLAY at second.

Force outs are not hard. If the run scores before you get it back at second, he's safe. It happened in 2000 I believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

SHUT UP DEAD

Not only do you come in acting like a jackass, but you do it after the question has already been resolved many times over.

Just SHUT UP.

[Voltron87]

what is this play called, when a runner is thrown out before he tags up after a fly/line out?

[The Stranger]

[ QUOTE ]
what is this play called, when a runner is thrown out before he tags up after a fly/line out?

[/ QUOTE ]

An appeal play.

Hypothetical play. Runner on first, one out. Runner is going on the pitch. Sharp liner to short. Shortstop catches it, throws wildly to first and the ball rolls out of play into the dugout. Umpires call time and award the runner third. Runner, not yet having retouched first base, touches second and jogs into third. The pitcher, toes the rubber, umpire calls, "Play."

It is now the defense's responsibility to appeal the runner failing to tag up. If they don't, the runner stays at third. The runner was never "forced" to do anything.

Another odd version of a timing play. First and third, one out. Long fly to the outfield, and somehow BOTH runners fail to tag up. The runner from third crosses home before the defense retires the runner from first. The run scores. Even though there are now three outs, the defense may still appeal the runner from third leaving early to nullify the run, provided that not all nine fielders have crossed the foul lines.