Suited connectors and the 5%/10% rule

[DJ Sensei]

I'm quite familiar with the use of the 5/10 % rule when playing small and mid pocket pairs, but recently, when my KK was stacked by a dude playing 76s with a 6xbb preflop raise, it led me to think that mid-suited-connectors could be played against preflop raises in a similar style. Flopping 2 pair against an overpair is bound to be quite profitable, and a number of draws are possible as well.

Obviously, flopping 2 pair is not as great as flopping a set, as its more easily cracked or counterfeited, so the calling standards should probably be a little more strict. On the other hand, suited connectors flop a lot more draws than pairs, which have solid implied odds in their own right.

The question is, do yall play suited connectors like mid pairs according to the 5%/10% rule or some more conservative variation of it? (Maybe call if the raise is less than 4% of smaller stack, fold if its greater than 8%, anything in between depends on position, etc.)

[empty]

I tried this out for a while. I started playing suited connectors and suited gapped connectors to raises about 4-5x the BB. (7-10s, J-8s, etc., two suited cards that could make me an open-ender, and that couldn't be the top and bottom of a straight)

A couple times I hit big, like flopped a flush, but it was still a weak flush, and one time ended up getting outdrawn.

It ended up killing me, I looked at my PT and I was playing way too many of these hands.

Personally i love playing small pockets to raises, and have had great results with hitting sets and getting payed. On the other hand with suited-connectors, it becomes tough because even when u hit a pretty strong hand (2pair, trips, flush) you have a much greater chance of getting outdrawn when than when u hit pockets.

I started playing suited-connectors in LP and raising with them, and it helps mix up my game a little. I don't mind calling a raise every once in a while with them to throw my opponents off.

But from my experience, calling a raise nearly everytime with these types of hands will lose you money.

Hoped this helped, good luck!!!

[BZ_Zorro]

I don't like to call suited connectors to a raise (especially big raises) unless there's many in the pot already. Here's why:

5.5% of the time (1 time in ~18) you'll flop an instant winner (flush, straight, 2 pair, trips).

20% of the time you'll flop a good draw (OESD or flush) BUT only 20% of the time you'll make that flush or straight on the turn.

So 94.5% of the time you won't have a made hand on the flop.
90% of the time you won't have a made hand on the turn.

Unless you're at a table that's giving away a lot of free/cheap cards, and paying off well when you do hit, you can see why calling raises often with small suited connectors is generally not +EV. Your made hands will also be vulnerable to being outdrawn/dead already as your flush kickers are weak and your two pairs are vulnerable.

As you go up (I guess T9s+), top pair becomes more viable, your flushes and two pair become stronger, but you've still got a weak kicker however you look at it.

As far as rules go, I rarely call more than 2BB pf unless there's many in the pot already. I generally only play them in MP3, CO and Button (you badly need position when drawing/ hitting a draw). IMO suited connectors and one gappers should be 'mix up' cards and not auto play cards. When mixing it up it doesn't hurt to raise them occassionally either.

BZ

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This is where I got the odds: Poker Future.com (http://www.pokerfuture.com/pokerodds.htm):

Odds of flopping:
A flush from two suited cards: 0.84% (118/1)
A straight from two connectors: 1.3% (76/1)
Two pair 2% (49/1)
Trips 1.35%

So you have a ~5.5% chance of flopping an instant winner.

Odds of flopping a good draw (OESD or flush):

Flush draw: 11%
Straight draw: 10.5%

For a total of ~20% (there is some overlap)

Note that you have a 30% chance of flopping a pair and then a further 10% chance of turning trips/2 pair. However this only adds 3% to the turn odds and more often than not you're putting money in with second/third pair and losing money.

[soah]

You need to stop thinking entirely about your own cards and your own odds and start making decisions based upon who your opponent is. The chips aren't going to get up from your opponent's stack and walk into the pot all on their own. To have implied odds you need your opponent to pick up those chips himself and use them.

If Ray Zee raises in front of me there are pretty much no cards I will call him with (reraise or fold... mostly folding). If Fishy McGoo is playing poker for the first time in his life and he's the only one to enter the pot, I'd like to play just about any two cards against him on the button.

Ciaffone/Reuben are perfectly clear that the 5/10 rule is to be implemented IN SITUATIONS WHERE YOU WERE ALREADY CONSIDERING CALLING DUE TO THE FAVORABLE CIRCUMSTANCES. Lots of 2+2ers would have you believe that you're required to play certain hands because of the 5/10 rule. But the fact of the matter is that the only way you can be making +EV plays is if your opponents are making -EV plays. So when there's someone in the pot in front of you, you have to ask yourself if you are going to be able to turn a profit against them when you know you are starting out with the worst hand. That's the crux of the problem.

[BZ_Zorro]

[ QUOTE ]
You need to stop thinking entirely about your own cards and your own odds and start making decisions based upon who your opponent is....So when there's someone in the pot in front of you, you have to ask yourself if you are going to be able to turn a profit against them when you know you are starting out with the worst hand. That's the crux of the problem.

[/ QUOTE ]
True, but first you need to know the odds of every combination inside out. You need to know why it's a bad idea in general to play certain cards (like J4o), and how often certain cards/combinations (like 87s) are going to hit. When facing unknowns (which is half of your hands online), you need to have a generalised strategy that is sound mathematically. For multi tabling even more so. I don't care how good a player someone is, you can't keep calling big raises with JTs/45s and making money unless you're bluffing the pants off every second hand.

Once the foundation is there I agree with your post 100%

[Student Caine]

What I have notice for the $50 - $200 games with the small suited connectors is that if you hit the flush you have an issue - most people stop action when they see that third of a suit fall unless they themselves have a flush (or maybe a set that they just cannot lay down), and the flush that they have will beat your flush. /images/graemlins/frown.gif