Forum check....

[Joe Tall]

I've been noticing something in the hand histories I've been reviewing and I'm asking the forum about this...

5/10 6-max, blinds are loose/normal aggression.

Loosey limps in EP and you have 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif on the button.

Call or fold?

EDIT: ADD YOUR REASONS FOR YOUR DECISION!!

Play well and take care,
Joe Tall

[Alobar]

I fold

[DMBFan23]

I fold here, but sometimes open raise this (right players in blinds blah blah blah)

[EDIT: calling is close because I have the button. however, then I'd want fairly passive blinds, because having to pay 2 bets to see a flop with this hand is not kosher.

however, I just don't think I have enough high card power or flop enough good draws to make up for all the times I whiff or flop some pair of 5s on a A high flop and have to fold.

I play 78s here, but that's a much more powerful hand of course. I'm not sure about 76s. I'm also tight.

hmm I'm thinking I need to hire you to look over some HHs...

/EDIT]

[Girchuck]

Fold.
One limper is not enough if you always need to hit your hand to win

[StellarWind]

Fold. 76s plays.

[Nigel]

I fold.

[RunDownHouse]

I fold. No high card power, no initiative. Its just too weak.

I'm in 2/4 games, btw.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold. 76s plays.

[/ QUOTE ]

? It's not that close.

[Catt]

I generally fold. I might play it with a good sense of my opponents post-flop play. I'd play connectors, though (down to either 65s or 54s, depending).

[DMBFan23]

Stellarwind,

what's your cutoff for raising? (assuming you limp 76s). if you raise 76s then cool.

[Ryno]

Wow - all these fold votes. I would call if I had any reasonable control and/or decent reads at the table. If I just sat down I might fold.

[KaiShin]

I'd play 76s in this situation, so I can't see why I wouldn't play 75s. Since the blinds are loose, call. If the blinds were tight, I'd likely fold it up.

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd play 76s in this situation, so I can't see why I wouldn't play 75s. Since the blinds are loose, call. If the blinds were tight, I'd likely fold it up.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a big difference between 2-gappers and connectors, and a smaller difference (though still important, IMHO) between one-gappers and connectors. In a smallish pot I'm thinking about the likelihood of flopping a playable hand, and the number of two-card combos on the flop that give us an OESD is 3:2 in favor of the connectors; for a gutshot, it's 7:4. Meaningful, IMHO. But at the end, we have to draw an arbitrary line somewhere and this is where I draw mine. I'd not argue that this is the right line, but it's currently the right line for me.

[Michael Davis]

Can I raise?

[rory]

If I am likely to get it 2 way with one of the blinds or maybe heads up I will raise here if the players are ready-to-give-up-if-I-bet-on-the-flop-or-give-me-free-cards kinds of players. If the blinds are the aforementioned postflop kind of players but also very loose I will limp. If anybody is really LAGGy or plays reasonably well postflop and will make me pay to draw and won't give me free cards and what not, I will fold.

[turnipmonster]

instafold

[Bluffoon]

I dont think the best case 4/1 overlay is enough to call with this hand unless your opponents will pay you off big if you hit. If I have a strong image and have lots of fold equity I might raise it. But under most circumstances I fold this.

[rory]

I guess I am a LAG. :'(

[KaiShin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd play 76s in this situation, so I can't see why I wouldn't play 75s. Since the blinds are loose, call. If the blinds were tight, I'd likely fold it up.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a big difference between 2-gappers and connectors, and a smaller difference (though still important, IMHO) between one-gappers and connectors. In a smallish pot I'm thinking about the likelihood of flopping a playable hand, and the number of two-card combos on the flop that give us an OESD is 3:2 in favor of the connectors; for a gutshot, it's 7:4. Meaningful, IMHO. But at the end, we have to draw an arbitrary line somewhere and this is where I draw mine. I'd not argue that this is the right line, but it's currently the right line for me.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with pretty much everything here. 76s is the standard line for me as well, but that's not to say that the line isn't adjustable based on game conditions, and who I'm playing against, and sometimes just because I feel like it /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[paco]

When I check my tracker stats its clear that suited connectors with no space are profitable from any position, but the profitablity is negligible with one space SC's. This of course assumes they are played well--i.e. not calling raises, with position, open-raising with them occasionally, making sure enough people in if you're actually gonna draw to a hand).
That data would make this clear fold. You have position, but you're not raising for deception, not enough players to draw, etc...

[fyodor]

I will raise, limp behind and fold in this situation.

I raise if I have been showing down some respectable winners lately and think at least one of the blinds might fold. I might hit the flop and if I miss I am prepared to take one stab against 2 opponents.

I limp behind if I am pretty sure raising will not fold either blind and I haven't limped much at all at the table. Again I may hit and if I miss I will still take one stab because I have found if anyone is noticing I never limp and some big cards come on the flop and I bet when checked to, sometimes they all fold.

Most of the time I just fold this preflop though.

[Entity]

Weird. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=headsup&Number=1957492&For um=f8&Words="How%20bad"&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=1957492&Search=true&wh ere=bodysub&Name=13485&daterange=1&newerval=24&new ertype=w&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post195749 2)

I've limped it before and I'll limp it again. I'd fold against some players (especially if the blinds were solid players), but I'm more inclined to limp away and have a little fun postflop.

Rob

[7ontheline]

I fold. The key here is that the limper is a loosey - I have a hand with no high card power. If the limper is a loosey who will fold if he misses and the blinds are tight maybe raise. I don't like limping behind usually, I prefer to have the initiative.

[Zygote]

This is a fold.

Reasons:

-75 plays bad in shorthanded pots and you simply don't have enough implied odds. Also, almost any raise from the blinds will be bad for you

[clownshoes]

lets call
Im gonna call
alright then

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been noticing something in the hand histories I've been reviewing and I'm asking the forum about this...

5/10 6-max, blinds are loose/normal aggression.

Loosey limps in EP and you have 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif on the button.

Call or fold?


[/ QUOTE ]

So its like this, I'll have position on everyone in a likely 4 way unraised pot against the typical party clowns at 5-10 (6 max)? Oh yeah, I'll call.

Its a very easy hand to play postflop against players who are too loose and in general too passive.

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
instafold

[/ QUOTE ]

Its a sad day in Mudville when a player with your postflop skills folds that hand in that spot. Frankly, i'm surprised. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[donger]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned differentiating between a passive or aggressive game. I think hands like this have more value on the button against passive opponents than vs laggros who are going to be leading at a lot of flops.

EDIT: just saw that bunky did. good work /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[tolbiny]

"I'd play 76s in this situation, so I can't see why I wouldn't play 75s. Since the blinds are loose, call. If the blinds were tight, I'd likely fold it up."

If the blinds were tight then i would raise here.

[imported_CaseClosed326]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold.
One limper is not enough if you always need to hit your hand to win

[/ QUOTE ]

[Subfallen]

I suppose the final answer depends on how good opponents are, but let's face it, you have basically fair share equity and the button. Folding here against opponents you have any kind of control over is weeaakk.

[sinfulslick18]

i fold.. i need more than one limper

[Dov]

This is about right for me too.

A lot depends on my image at the table.

[Dov]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold.
One limper is not enough if you always need to hit your hand to win

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you need to hit this to win?

You have the button.

[BottlesOf]

It depends /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[7ontheline]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold.
One limper is not enough if you always need to hit your hand to win

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you need to hit this to win?

You have the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I was folding under the assumption that Mr. Loosey who limped in was the common type who wouldn't fold much, if at all. Things change if he is loose but also will fold if he misses.

[arkady]

Call.

sb/bb has to have a tendency to raise PF from their positions in order for me not to play this. I dont quite understand the merit of raising, unless we know the blinds are super tight.

[ALL1N]

IMO if you play this it's important to have a plan. If the blinds are somewhat tight and the limper is weakish, then I'd raise. If they're all passive calling stations, or tend to overplay the big streets I'd call. But I think folding would often be correct.

[mperich]

I like a fold here too. Suited one gappers with just one limper arent worth it IMO. The button just isnt a big enough advantage to play junk like this.

The worst I would probably limp here is ~T9s. If there are two bad playing limpers then I probably come along. Maybe Im too tight on the button though.

-Mike

[Trix]

You mean call or raise ?

I´m not folding this against a bad limper and bad loose-normal blinds, so it´s either raise or fold depending on how I think postflop will play out.

I raise if I think it will give me a good shot at winning unimproved, but limp otherwise and get value if I hit something or think I have a profitable bluff.

Actually this is about the lowest I have played in this spot, but I wonder how low you can go, as I like getting involved this loose/bad players. 85s?, 74s ?, 64s ?, 53s ?, 43s?

[StellarWind]

.

[imported_azalin]

I fold. I would call with 9Ts minimum but thats just me.

[BK_]

i strongly disagree with the people suggestion that raising is a viable option. id rather not play a 3 or 4 way raised pot with 57, where the pot is large enough that a flop bet wont get any folds anyway

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold. I would call with 9Ts minimum but thats just me.

[/ QUOTE ]

You play way too tight for a full game, none the less a short game. T9s is a raise on the button.

[Joe Tall]

Easy limp guys,

You have the fcking button, for Clark's sake, use it to your advantage. Getting an expected 3:1, is plenty with the best position. My 6-max button stats are 32/23 with a 0.15BB/100, open the $hit up bro.

Peace,
Joe Tall

This might be a full game thread but the concept is the same. 75s in the CO after 2 limpers. (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=381932&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&fpart=all&vc=1)

[adamstewart]

I call here a good percentage of the time.

(I'll fold if I've had a "loose" image lately).



Adam

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
It depends /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

One thing you are is consistent, consistently wrong, but consistent. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
Easy limp guys,

You have the fcking button, for Clark's sake, use it to your advantage. Getting an expected 3:1, is plenty with the best position. My 6-max button stats are 32/23 with a 0.15BB/100, open the $hit up bro.

Peace,
Joe Tall


[/ QUOTE ]
What do stats have to do with it?

Whoopdedo, my 6-max button stats are 33/30 with 0.15BB/hand (not per 100 /images/graemlins/smile.gif ) . . . but I can't imagine calling here with 75s after just one EP limper. Shorthanded is a high-card game, not a crappy-one-gap-suited-connector-against-2-or-3-other-players-but-it's-all-good-because-I-have-the-button game.

If I play it I probably raise it (and then only if the blinds are somewhat tight). But you can probably tell that from the whole 33/30 thing.

[Zygote]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Easy limp guys,

You have the fcking button, for Clark's sake, use it to your advantage. Getting an expected 3:1, is plenty with the best position. My 6-max button stats are 32/23 with a 0.15BB/100, open the $hit up bro.

Peace,
Joe Tall


[/ QUOTE ]
What do stats have to do with it?

Whoopdedo, my 6-max button stats are 33/30 with 0.15BB/hand (not per 100 /images/graemlins/smile.gif ) . . . but I can't imagine calling here with 75s after just one EP limper. Shorthanded is a high-card game, not a crappy-one-gap-suited-connector-against-2-or-3-other-players-but-it's-all-good-because-I-have-the-button game.

If I play it I probably raise it (and then only if the blinds are somewhat tight). But you can probably tell that from the whole 33/30 thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Grisga, IMO, you are absolutely correct and i have little doubt of it either. Some things are arguably close, but this isn't one of them.

[Zygote]

[ QUOTE ]
Easy limp guys,

You have the fcking button, for Clark's sake, use it to your advantage. Getting an expected 3:1, is plenty with the best position. My 6-max button stats are 32/23 with a 0.15BB/100, open the $hit up bro.

Peace,
Joe Tall

This might be a full game thread but the concept is the same. 75s in the CO after 2 limpers. (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=381932&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&fpart=all&vc=1)

[/ QUOTE ]

What limit? Over how many hands? Avg. Amount of Players?

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Easy limp guys,

You have the fcking button, for Clark's sake, use it to your advantage. Getting an expected 3:1, is plenty with the best position. My 6-max button stats are 32/23 with a 0.15BB/100, open the $hit up bro.

Peace,
Joe Tall

This might be a full game thread but the concept is the same. 75s in the CO after 2 limpers. (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=381932&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&fpart=all&vc=1)

[/ QUOTE ]

What limit? Over how many hands? Avg. Amount of Players?

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW I'm sure JT's stats are for a high limit over a good amount of hands . . . but that just seems like a goofy call to make. If our VP$IPs are similar on the button, I can't help but wonder what hands he's folding that I'm playing, bcs I sure don't play that crapola /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

FWIW II: For full 6-handed games I'm 0.14BB/hand on the button, 27/23.

[fyodor]

Johnny Bax (http://www.pocketfives.com/?user=johnnybax) ranked Number 1 Online at PocketFives.com

Note his favourite hand. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
Can I raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but read Fyodor's post before and find out when. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

~ Rick

[stir]

Yeah, what he said.