Forum check....

[Joe Tall]

I was looking over some overdue Hand histories of a student and wanted to ask the forum how they feel about this...

Typical SS game, loose passive table, decent button, moderate blinds.

2 loosey limpers to you in the CO and you have 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Call or fold?

EDIT: ADD YOUR REASONS FOR YOUR DECISION!!

Play well and take care,
Joe Tall

[ihardlyknowher]

Call.

[coffeecrazy1]

Fold. Only because I'm trying to get back to playing nuts-and-bolts poker after a year of tilt-ridden FPS.

[PokerSparky]

I've been folding this regularly, but my VPIP is 17% and I want to get it up, so I could be convinced to play this.

[private joker]

Fold.

[PokerSparky]

How many limpers for a call?

[disjunction]

fold fold fold fold fold fold fold fold fold fold fold fold

Good luck on getting that middle pair to win at showdown.

[br549007]

Fold. If you bet with 3 to act behind you, one of the three will raise. Now you have 7 in a raised pot and with this hand, i don`t know what I would want to see on the flop.

[sthief09]

I think this is a call, but I think it's pretty marginal. it probably also depends on the person's ability

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold. If you bet with 3 to act behind you, one of the three will raise. Now you have 7 in a raised pot and with this hand, i don`t know what I would want to see on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]


what the hell are you talking about?

[Evan]

Call. You will likely have position in the hand with the button being "decent". Having the button with semi-connected suited cards in a 4+ way pot is good.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold. If you bet with 3 to act behind you, one of the three will raise. Now you have 7 in a raised pot and with this hand, i don`t know what I would want to see on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]


what the hell are you talking about?

[/ QUOTE ]

Josh, you rule, you remind of...well...me! Does Johnny Boom Boom hit on you too?

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold.

[/ QUOTE ]


I think you're too tight based on a lot of your posts.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold. If you bet with 3 to act behind you, one of the three will raise. Now you have 7 in a raised pot and with this hand, i don`t know what I would want to see on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]


what the hell are you talking about?

[/ QUOTE ]

Josh, you rule, you remind of...well...me! Does Johnny Boom Boom hit on you too?

[/ QUOTE ]


no, I carry a Boom Boom stick so he doesn't try anything.

[ihardlyknowher]

[ QUOTE ]
i don`t know what I would want to see on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I vote for 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif4/images/graemlins/spade.gif6/images/graemlins/spade.gif. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[jason_t]

Easy call. With decent postflop skills in marginal sitations this will surely turn a profit. We have position and some implied odds from the bad limpers.

[Emmitt2222]

I am a slightly tighter person, but I call this. You have pretty strong position and I think this is even a super easy call on the button. The fact that the two callers ahead of you are loose is even better because if you hit you flush or straight it is more likely that you get paid off. The button being a better player can be annoying because he will raise sometimes, but the large majority of the time he will fold and you will have the button. Also, since the blinds are competant, if they see the flop and catch a good piece they will most likely bet and then I can raise to trap the loose players inbetween. The private joker said fold and he is better than me, but he provided no reasoning so I will have to go against him.

[partygirluk]

Don't think this makes a big difference in the long run.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't think this makes a big difference in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

With the range of hands it opens and ideal of the question, if very much does.

[27offsooot]

fold in the CO, call on the button

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
fold in the CO, call on the button

[/ QUOTE ]

What difference does this make? The read on Button is "decent" which implies moderately tight which means most of the time we are going to have the Button anyway.

[ihardlyknowher]

[ QUOTE ]
ADD YOUR REASONS FOR YOUR DECISION!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Call. Because I love pumping draws in multiway pots. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
It gets me lots of action when I flop a made hand.

[GuyOnTilt]

[ QUOTE ]
Call or fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Call.

[ QUOTE ]
EDIT: ADD YOUR REASONS FOR YOUR DECISION!!

[/ QUOTE ]

A wise man once said, "If you aren't going to play that hand in that spot, why are you even at a poker table?"

GoT

[brettbrettr]

I've been calling more lately. I'd say my limp will get me the button more often than not and its a very easy hand to get away from if I don't find a favorable flop.

[Nick C]

I would probably call at this loose-passive table.

I am hoping Button doesn't have a hand or even something he wants to limp with, though.

[MercTec]

I'm leaning towards a fold, a call with 1 more limper.

If button is decent then he may also understand the value of the button and call liberally here as well, so I don't think you get the button all that often.

[gvibes]

I think I'd call 79 or better here (but I haven't played full ring in a while, and am still working out some kinks).

A decent button could be raising a lot of hands after 3 limpers (I'm at about 15% on the button), which really kills our implied odds. Also, ~25% of the time we won't even have the button.

OTOH, w/ "moderate" blinds, there is a deceent chance this is going to be a 5-way pot here, which is nice.

[Emmitt2222]

Here's a question. Would you actually rather the button limped to pad the pot because you have a drawing hand anyway, or would you rather just have position?

I think I would actually want the button to fold instead of limping because I /images/graemlins/heart.gif position

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]


Call.


A wise man once said, "If you aren't going to play that hand in that spot, why are you even at a poker table?"

GoT

[/ QUOTE ]

This may have been a turning point in both of our poker careers. We grew up around here near the same time, I remember it so well and I still have the bookmark from back then:

In it's original form... (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=381932&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&fpart=all&vc=1)

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a question. Would you actually rather the button limped to pad the pot because you have a drawing hand anyway, or would you rather just have position?

I think I would actually want the button to fold instead of limping because I /images/graemlins/heart.gif position

[/ QUOTE ]

I would prefer for the Button to fold.

[disjunction]

I'm not sure what brilliant postflop decisions will make money. We'll most likely have to fold the gutshots. We may get a call or two when we hit a flush but most likely we won't get bet into. We may even lose with a flush to a sooted hand. The pot is not large so there's no SSHE rabbit to pull out of our hat. In short, we won't make much better decisions than a fish would, except for finding a couple of small +EV folds.

I'm beginning to come around to shania arguments, that you might want to play this every once in a blue moon for that reason, but I don't see it making a profit.

[Piiop]

[ QUOTE ]
What difference does this make? The read on Button is "decent" which implies moderately tight which means most of the time we are going to have the Button anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

It makes a difference. Most of the times we will have the button, but what about the times we don't? Sure, it won't happen that often and it won't affect our hand *that* much. But, if the call is slightly +EV on the button, then those extra factors when we're in the CO might make it 0 EV or -EV. Either way, it won't make a big difference, but when it's not a close decision, there's not a lot to debate. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I'd probably call and sometimes fold. I would call on the button.

[GuyOnTilt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Call.


A wise man once said, "If you aren't going to play that hand in that spot, why are you even at a poker table?"

GoT

[/ QUOTE ]

This may have been a turning point in both of our poker careers. We grew up around here near the same time, I remember it so well and I still have the bookmark from back then:

In it's original form... (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=381932&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&fpart=all&vc=1)

[/ QUOTE ]

That's awesome that you actually knew what I was talking about. The first thing I thought of when reading your post was that thread and specifically Clark's posts in it. And yeah, right around then was when I stopped playing tight poker and started playing poker. Clark rules. I suppose I owe him a beer or three.

GoT

[27offsooot]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
fold in the CO, call on the button

[/ QUOTE ]

What difference does this make? The read on Button is "decent" which implies moderately tight which means most of the time we are going to have the Button anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

I consider myself decent by 2/4 standards. I open up my limping/ raising range a ton on the button after three limpers. I assume button will too and more than usual I will now find myself w/o the button or now in a raised pot. He may only have a VPIP of 30 and a PFR of 15/20 in this situation on the button (as I expect mine might be), but that's only 70% of the time that we now have the button. This does make a difference to me. I'm not gonna assume he's a VPIPer of 15 in this situation just b/c that's what his stats say

Edit - With all that said, I've probably limped in this situation or a similar situation in the CO more than my fair share. I just think folding is better here.

[flair1239]

I would call on the button in this situation for sure.

In the CO I have to think a bit:

Reasons I would like to call:

1. It is obviously ideal to get to play weak players when you have position.

2. The fact that they are passive means, I have a great chance of getting free cards, that this type of hand benefits from.

3. I have an excellent chance of getting paid off if I hit.

4. If I botch the hand, they won't punish me.

Reasons I want to fold:

1. A decent playing button, may raise a wide range of hands behind 3-limpers.

1A. Whether he raises or limps behind me, means I have less of a chance of getting free cards.

2. I will lose more and win less in my marginal situations.

3. There is a good chance if he has a hand and I have a draw, I could end up isolated on the turn.


At this point I guess I would call. The button scenario is going to happen a relively small percentage of the time. Even with a decent button who plays loose from that position. Worst case maybe he comes in 25% of the time, 15% for a raise. Some of those times we will flop big.

The blinds don't worry me as much, as I will have postion on them the entire hand. I would like them to be more passive obviously. I don't want a button raise and a blind 3-bet pf.

So I guess I am calling.

[Joe Tall]

Clark rules. I suppose I owe him a beer or three

Considering I was 44k in Credit Card debt at that time and now I haven't worked since last August; I may just owe him more than that! I did buy him dinner the last time I was out there, but I felt bad for my 3-betting him on the river in front of the NPA and dragging it. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

CU next week?

[jskills]

I fold it.

[meep_42]

I'm pretty sure i'm folding this most of the time. 65s or 76s, i'm calling. Seems silly to make that the difference, though.

-d

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]

CU next week?

[/ QUOTE ]


I think I'm the only person not going. I don't even get to be "that guy" who blacks out at the poker table and tells Evan he's a piece of [censored] nit

screw you guys

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

CU next week?

[/ QUOTE ]


I think I'm the only person not going. I don't even get to be "that guy" who blacks out at the poker table and tells Evan he's a piece of [censored] nit

screw you guys


[/ QUOTE ]

I'll do it!

[TheDelChop]

For all of you who say this is a fold, would you rather have a hand like K-To? I don't see why this is a fold, I agree with Joe Tall and Clark.

1. You will most likely have position on all betting rounds
2. You have a hand that plays well multi-way.
3. If you hit you hand, it will most likely be the best hand and you can collect manny extra bets.
4. You are a much better player than all of your opponenets.

Finally...

[ QUOTE ]
fold fold fold fold fold fold fold fold fold fold fold fold

Good luck on getting that middle pair to win at showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone who is limping with 7-5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif because of its pair strength should get up and leave the table. (Or come play with me.) /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't even get to be "that guy" who blacks out at the poker table and tells Evan he's a piece of [censored] nit

[/ QUOTE ]

Bellagio 4/8 (9 handed)

EP limps, I raise w/ Q:red: Q:other red: in LP, Josh calls on the button, BB 3 bets, EP calls, I 4 bet, Josh 5 bets, BB calls, EP calls

Flop: Ks Qs 9s (4 players, 20 SB)

BB checks, EP checks, I bet, Josh raises, BB calls, EP folds, I 3 bet, Josh 4 bets, BB calls, I 5 bet, Josh calls, BB calls

Turn: 5:red: (3 players, 20 BB)
BB checks, I bet, Josh raises, BB folds, I 3 bet, Josh 4 bets, I call

River: 9:red: (2 players, 28 BB)
I bet, Josh calls and says, in a low and grouchy voice, "Evan, you're the nittiest [censored] nit that ever was a [censored] nit you [censored] piece of [censored]. I flop the [censored] nut and you [censored] suck out, you [censored] nit [censored]." as he tables A5s. Oops /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]

I bet, Josh calls and says, in a low and grouchy voice, "Evan, you're the nittiest [censored] nit that ever was a [censored] nit you [censored] piece of [censored]. I flop the [censored] nut and you [censored] suck out, you [censored] nit [censored]." as he tables A5s. Oops /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

What are the last two [censored]s?

[Evan]

'fuc[/i]king' and 'fuc[/i]ker'

[S_Perry]

Call. The button will fold most times and I can outplay these donks postflop.

[fluff]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Call.


A wise man once said, "If you aren't going to play that hand in that spot, why are you even at a poker table?"

GoT

[/ QUOTE ]

This may have been a turning point in both of our poker careers. We grew up around here near the same time, I remember it so well and I still have the bookmark from back then:

In it's original form... (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=381932&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&fpart=all&vc=1)

[/ QUOTE ]

That's awesome that you actually knew what I was talking about. The first thing I thought of when reading your post was that thread and specifically Clark's posts in it. And yeah, right around then was when I stopped playing tight poker and started playing poker. Clark rules. I suppose I owe him a beer or three.

GoT

[/ QUOTE ]

GoT's original respsonse:

I would never make this limp, EVER. But I'm much tighter preflop that most people are on this forum, so that might not mean too much.

/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
'fuc[/i]king' and 'fuc[/i]ker'

[/ QUOTE ]

You f[/i]uck nits? Damn, that's nitty.

[Evan]

Wanna share a room in Vegas?

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
'fuc[/i]king' and 'fuc[/i]ker'

[/ QUOTE ]

You f[/i]uck nits? Damn, that's nitty.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kind of funny... you make a rant post about the quality of the forum, then you join in the hi-jack of what could be an interesting thread. Way to lead by example.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
'fuc[/i]king' and 'fuc[/i]ker'

[/ QUOTE ]

You f[/i]uck nits? Damn, that's nitty.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kind of funny... you make a rant post about the quality of the forum, then you join in the hi-jack of what could be an interesting thread. Way to lead by example.

[/ QUOTE ]

My post is not a rant. It's an observation. As I mentioned in that post, the only low content threads I find acceptable are ones where we are getting to know each other as it leads to better working relationships. I just learned that Evan fu[/i]cks nits. You don't think that'll be relevant in the future?

[meep_42]

[ QUOTE ]
You don't think that'll be relevant in the future?

[/ QUOTE ]

Only to your backside, i'd imagine.

-d

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
Wanna share a room in Vegas?

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't even have to get on your knees for.... /images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[MercTec]

not to be a nit...but isnt the nuts JTs here? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[colgin]

Joe Tall,

I think this may be the poster child for the very marginal pre-flop call. I think you mostly increase your variance with this sort of play (which I don't care about as long as it is still +EV), but I tend to think itis slightly +EV as long as you play well post-flop (duh!), which, of course, we should all be striving for.

As you once told me, open-limping from EP with a hand like this is a real chip burner. But here you have a couple of weak limpers. I would much prefer a passive button here because a raise would screw your implied odds, but the limpfest that you joined is more likely to encourage a limpr from button, if he plays at all, than a raise (unless he happens to have a real hand).

With two loose paasive in, my guess is that you have the implied odds for this hand. Also attractive is having the other potentially aggresive player on the button. If you hit your big draw, or make your hand, you may be able to trap the whole field for extra bets with a check-raise if you have a button who will auto-bet when checked to.

Still, I think this is very marginal.

All the best.

Colgin

P.S. I love the fact that when you take the time to post there there are like 5 pages of replies within an hour.

[GuyOnTilt]

[ QUOTE ]
I would never make this limp, EVER.

[/ QUOTE ]

And by "EVER", I meant for another couple weeks or so. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

GoT

[Entity]

I call. I posted a very similar thread a while ago in HUSH, but the loosies were generally LAG. I won a ~30BB pot with it so I'm probably biased.

Rob

[Azhrarn]

I call.

It's an okay hand and good position. And loose-passive opponents will give you free cards and cheap showdowns if you want them (if the button folds.) But it's a good enough situation to be worth the risk of the button crashing the party.

[Entity]

Link to my thread in HUSH. (http://tinyurl.com/89l3r)

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]
I call. I posted a very similar thread a while ago in HUSH, but the loosies were generally LAG. I won a ~30BB pot with it so I'm probably biased.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not sure this would make it a fold, but with this particular hand, I think I prefer that they are passive. As more times than not we will want a cheap/free card.

[Stack]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Call.


A wise man once said, "If you aren't going to play that hand in that spot, why are you even at a poker table?"

GoT

[/ QUOTE ]

This may have been a turning point in both of our poker careers. We grew up around here near the same time, I remember it so well and I still have the bookmark from back then:

In it's original form... (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=381932&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&fpart=all&vc=1)

[/ QUOTE ]

That is an awsome link. And this is a good post. Thanks.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
I suppose I owe him a beer or three.

GoT

[/ QUOTE ]

Sweet.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I suppose I owe him a beer or three.

GoT

[/ QUOTE ]

Sweet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wish I would've seen that thread the first time around when I posted more-or-less the same damned thing in HUSH. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[SmileyEH]

I fold that everytime.

-SmileyEH

[TheDelChop]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold that everytime.

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]

What??? (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2609429&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)

[SmileyEH]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I fold that everytime.

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]

What??? (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2609429&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)

[/ QUOTE ]

context

n 1: discourse that surrounds a language unit and helps to determine its interpretation [syn: linguistic context, context of use] 2: the set of facts or circumstances that surround a situation or event; "the historical context"

-SmileyEH

[TheDelChop]

Ok then lets have a 500 word essay on why limping with a decent suited connector in position against many loose and bad players is worse than calling a raise with the same type of hand heads-up OOP against a TAG.

[SmileyEH]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok then lets have a 500 word essay on why limping with a decent suited connector in position against many loose and bad players is worse than calling a raise with the same type of hand heads-up OOP against a TAG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Man, its been weeks since I've had a good flame war. Let's just go with a simple answer first:

3.5 : 1

-SmileyEH

[Luke]

If you aren't going to play that hand in that spot, why are you even at a poker table?

As soon as I read this post, this is the exact quote that came to mind. GOT just beat me to the punchline /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but that single quote helped shape my present day approach to preflop play.

Glad to see it resurfaced on the forum.

Luke

[Clarkmeister]

Wow, I must rule.

[Jake (The Snake)]

Smiley,

Not to budge into your flame war... but isn't hero getting 3.5:1 in both situation? The only difference being that button might raise. However, I think this is at least offset by the fact that the PFR in your post could cap and you have better position in this hand. Am I missing something?

[IamLeach]

With this hand I would definitly Call. Assuming the button calls and the blinds limp in as well then you're getting good action for this type of hand. If nothing promising shows it's an easy laydown, but I am really playing this hand for a set or a two pair or a straight/flush draw.

[SmileyEH]

[ QUOTE ]
Smiley,

Not to budge into your flame war... but isn't hero getting 3.5:1 in both situation? The only difference being that button might raise. However, I think this is at least offset by the fact that the PFR in your post could cap and you have better position in this hand. Am I missing something?

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably not. While no is going to argue that defending your BB with 86s is incorrect, my first instinct was to fold 75s in the situation this thread is about.

If button is decent he will probably raise around 18-20% of his hands here (lots of suited conectors), ofsuit broadways down to KT and QJ most likely. Also the SB and BB will raise a combined 15% of the time or so. So in reality you're going to end up paying 2SB around 30-35% of the time. I dont know if this is significant - and all the superstars are on the side of call so I'm clearly wrong, but these were my considerations.

I'll start calling in this spot from now on though, cause gambooling is fun.

-SmileyEH

[TheDelChop]

[ QUOTE ]
While no is going to argue that defending your BB with 86s is incorrect

[/ QUOTE ]

Word.

[ QUOTE ]
I'll start calling in this spot from now on though, cause gambooling is fun.

[/ QUOTE ]

Best. Reason. Ever.

[imported_PP123]

[ QUOTE ]
Typical SS game, loose passive table, decent button, moderate blinds.

2 loosey limpers to you in the CO and you have 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Call or fold?


[/ QUOTE ]
I call.

My reason is that Mason has said it's "clarly correct" to call on the button with 86s after an UTG limper. So then 75s must be a profitable call in CO after two loose limpers and with a tight button.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I fold that everytime.

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]

What??? (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2609429&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)

[/ QUOTE ]

If I were playing like 4 tables, I would call both of these hands.

If I were playing 8, I think I would fold the 75s, but I cant see folding the 86s.

[Mike Gallo]

2 loosey limpers to you in the CO and you have 75

I call.

EDIT: ADD YOUR REASONS FOR YOUR DECISION!!

I call because I play g000t /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Seriously, I call this type of hand a stack buster in no limit play. I can get away from the hand when I miss and extract the most when I hit. I think I my implied odds make up for my loose call.

[meep_42]

Happy birthday, Ish.

-d

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
Happy birthday, Ish.

-d

[/ QUOTE ]

ty. ty.

[Joe Tall]

I my implied odds make up for my loose call.

There is nothing loose about it, bro, stop being nice to the weak-tighties that live here now.

Hope things are well, Mike,
Joe

[TylerK]

This is just a thought, but why not raise?

If we're talking about a normal 2/4 or 3/6 game, the limpers aren't likely to fold for one more bet, but the button (being decent) is much more likely to fold hands he may have called or even raised from the button.

Additionally, we increase our chances of taking a free card on the flop.

Or does putting in the extra bet preflop reduce the implied odds for this hand enough to make it an unprofitable situation?

Since "raise" wasn't given as an option I assume it is worse than call or fold, but I thought I'd throw it out there as a question since I can't immediately think of a definite reason that makes it awful in this situation.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]

This is just a thought, but why not raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Awesome.

[TimM]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been folding this regularly, but my VPIP is 17% and I want to get it up, so I could be convinced to play this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have like a 14% VPIP and I call this. I probably throw away a lot of playable offsuit hands here, and offsuit hands are 3x as common, of course.