KK - Turn action

[ClaytonN]

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (9.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, Hero...?

[hicherbie]

call? im assuming your not asking if you should fold this...and a raise seems unusual with a donkbet on a brick.

[Quercus]

Looks like villain isn't willing to give you a free card on the turn.

edit: spelling

[ClaytonN]

I'm not really implying anything, just wondering what my plan should be for the rest of the hand.

[hicherbie]

hmm alright i take it back, i guess a lot of people would do this with a pair on the flop and no D. raise and call down to further agg.

[krimson]

Tough one. Since your closing the action I can see calling this down. I'd probably fold if someone raises it on the river.

[nomadtla]

IMO if big blind had it he would have slowplayed the turn like many at this level and c/r you. I'm thinking he's got a big draw or top pair and doesn't want to give a free card. I'd call it down, bet for value if the rivers a dud and he checks to you.

Thanks for your reply to my post the other day I got SSH and am in the process of rereading it. it makes so much sense it hurts. Thanks man.

[ClaytonN]

np noma

[Fantam]

I think you made a mistake on the flop Clayton.

You couldnt protect your hand from flush or straight draws on the flop. The pot was too big and too co-ordinated.

You needed to call the flop bet and wait to see whether the turn card was safe. Then when the blank fell on the turn, that was the time to raise a bet behind you forcing the rest of the field to call 2 cold.

Keeping the pot smaller on the flop, would have allowed you to more easily make calling a turn raise unprofitable for your opponents with weak draws.

[ClaytonN]

I considered that, Fantam, but I felt like on this draw, any single diamond or gutshot was coming along anyways. It was less a protection raise and more a value raise, if that makes sense.

[topspin]

[ QUOTE ]
I considered that, Fantam, but I felt like on this draw, any single diamond or gutshot was coming along anyways. It was less a protection raise and more a value raise, if that makes sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's still a value raise if you're sure someone will bet the turn so that you can raise a blank, and you collect 2BB from all the diamond draws instead of 2SB.

I still like the raise on the flop, since I think you might be able to get single small /images/graemlins/diamond.gifs to fold.

[KaiShin]

I don't think any single /images/graemlins/diamond.gifs are going anywhere on the flop, but its still a good raise.

The turn... I have absolutely no idea. I know if I had the K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif I would likely raise. I think this decision would depend on my opinion of BB. I'd probably just call though and reevaluate the river.

[Fantam]

Hi. I am glad that you now have SSH. It really is an excellent book.

See p163 and p187 for more examples of waiting for the turn to raise, instead of automatically raising the flop.

[milesdyson]

Do you have any reads at all?

I raise this a lot. If anyone 3-bets the turn, you fold.

[KaiShin]

Sorry, but I don't believe this is one of those situations.

Assuming Hero does not raise the flop, and everyone calls MP1's bet, we're going into the turn with 6.5BBs in the pot. Its pretty safe to say MP1 will bet again, so at the most we get to face two players with two bets cold. While this may fold out a gutshot, what we're really concerned about is lone /images/graemlins/diamond.gifs, which we cannot fold out even facing them with 3.25:1. They would correctly think that they could make up the remainder of their pot odds with implied odds on the river, plus if MP2 is the one on the gutshot we can't fold him out due to our position relative to the postflop aggresor. Since we can't protect and we can't wait to protect, the flop raise is for value.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you have any reads at all?

I raise this a lot. If anyone 3-bets the turn, you fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Fantam]

[ QUOTE ]
I considered that, Fantam, but I felt like on this draw, any single diamond or gutshot was coming along anyways. It was less a protection raise and more a value raise, if that makes sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, It makes sense, but you are probably pushing a smaller equity edge on the flop than the bigger equity edge you will get on the turn if a blank falls.

[ QUOTE ]
It's still a value raise if you're sure someone will bet the turn so that you can raise a blank, and you collect 2BB from all the diamond draws instead of 2SB.

[/ QUOTE ]

And it is more likely that someone will bet the turn, if you dont raise the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
I still like the raise on the flop, since I think you might be able to get single small /images/graemlins/diamond.gifs to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think its more likely that the single small diamonds will stay anyway, particular with loose players at micro stakes.

[KaiShin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I still like the raise on the flop, since I think you might be able to get single small /images/graemlins/diamond.gifs to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think its more likely that the single small diamonds will stay anyway, particular with loose players at micro stakes.

[/ QUOTE ]
All the more reason to raise the flop.

[ClaytonN]

I have no reads

I think the whole key to the effectiveness of raising the turn here is whether or not the turn bettor will call the turn raise with a worse hand and check/call a blank on the river.

With calling down as opposed to raising the turn and folding to a three-bet, it costs the same - 2BB.

Is the turn bettor capable of 3-betting a worse hand, such as pair + high diamond?

Anyways, I called and the river was a 7. Turn bettor bet again, MP guy folded, I called, he showed J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8x, MHIG

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
I have no reads

[/ QUOTE ]
So be it.

[ QUOTE ]
I think the whole key to the effectiveness of raising the turn here is whether or not the turn bettor will call the turn raise with a worse hand and check/call a blank on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not really. The key is that there's a player who is just calling between you, who is either drawing to the flush/straight or calling down with some crap. He will call a raise with either hand.

[ QUOTE ]
With calling down as opposed to raising the turn and folding to a three-bet, it costs the same - 2BB.

[/ QUOTE ]
It costs the same, but you never take advantage of the times your hand is good on the turn (which is pretty damn often based on the action).

[ QUOTE ]
Is the turn bettor capable of 3-betting a worse hand, such as pair + high diamond?

[/ QUOTE ]
In a word, no. You are being results oriented. Very rarely would an unknown 3-bet a worse hand that what you have here.

[ QUOTE ]
Anyways, I called and the river was a 7. Turn bettor bet again, MP guy folded, I called, he showed J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8x, MHIG

[/ QUOTE ]
It doesn't matter...

[Fantam]

Yes, the flush draws would have been coming along anyway, but any players behind us with gut-shots are the hands that we would have been trying to fold out to try to improve our winning chances.

Also we would have been hoping to raise on the turn with a bigger equity edge if a safe turn card fell, and save ourselves extra flop bets if a scare turn card came.

[Fantam]

I think Miles Dyson is right with respect to the turn raise.

Calling down makes sense if you are heads up, because it costs you the same either way. But with another player involved you make more by betting the turn when you are ahead.

[KaiShin]

I suppose that calling the flop and raising the turn would be a perfectly decent way to play this hand. You're right in that we're not passing up on a huge edge on the flop.

I still like raising both the flop and the turn /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Fantam]

Thanks for the discussion. Its always useful to hear other players views and compare them to your own. I appreciate your input to this thread. /images/graemlins/smile.gif