Imagine !

Imagine there's no heaven

It's easy if you try

No hell below us

Above us only sky

Imagine all the people

Living for today...


Imagine there's no countries

It isn't hard to do

Nothing to kill or die for

And no religon too

Imagine all the people

Living life in peace...


Imagine no possesions

I wonder if you can

No need for greed or hunger

In a brotherhood of man

Imagine all the people

Sharing all the world...


You may say I'm a dreamer

But I'm not the only one

I hope some day you'll join us

And the world will be as one


by John Lennon (New York)

When I was a dutiful, believing churchgoer, I was a bit saddened/putoff/angry about the references to no religion. Now that I'm a recently born-again atheist/agnostic, it makes perfect sense to me. If nobody was doing what god told them and instead figuring sh*t out on their own, the world would be a much better place. The one thing I haven't heard the president call the attacks is a "faith-based act," tho I really don't see how it isn't. This is probably offensive to people of faith (it has certainly caused trouble for me at home), but that's kinda the point. Until Jesus/Buddha/Mohammed/JosephSmith come down from the skies with the holes in their hands or whatever to settle the debate(and even them I'm gonna be pretty damn skeptical), I don't see how people can embrace a faith and then be oblivious to the consequences when others do the same. Anyway, I probably just made an enemy out of 85% of this board, but as I go down, I just want to say that as a born-again atheist, the concern I have for my

fellow man is born of reflection and care rather than inculcation and fear. I hope that those who do believe in religion try to understand what the words in that song are saying. I couldn't before, but it's worth a try.


JG

You said:


"Anyway, I probably just made an enemy out of 85% of this board, but as I go down, I just want to say that as a born-again atheist, the concern I have for my fellow man is born of reflection and care rather than inculcation and fear."


As a fellow atheist I think one becomes an atheist out of reflection and care. While on the other hand, one believes in a God or religion out of indoctrination and hope.


Of course this is my personal opinion, but if everyone actually thought about the concept of God and religion rather than simply believing what they were told since they were born I think there would be a lot more atheists. Although I think there are a lot more atheists than people think but they do not openly say so because of fear of being an outcast.


The US is also not immune from this concept of looking down on someone because he or she is an atheist. As an outsider, I think the concept of religion and God is ingrained in the US more than most other "developed" countries. Can anyone imagine someone running for President and openely saying they were an atheist? Not in this lifetime. Also Bush has refered to the bible and God many instances over the past 2 weeks.

Jim,


If you haven't already, you may want to read Twain's War Prayer I cut and pasted below.


John

Quondam Jack,


Reading these lyrics again only confirms my suspicion that this is possibly the worst song ever written. I hope I'm not the lone voice in the wilderness in this one.


John

John,


It could be the worse song written that attempted to be taken seriously.


Regards,


Rick

It's just another sunny tuesday morning when you kiss your wife and child good bye and say "I love you" to them as they leave to go shopping at a near by mall. Meanwhile, you go to your favorite cardroom to play a few hours while looking forward to meeting your wife and child late that afternoon after which you will be having a nice family dinner at your favorite restaurant.


As you play your hands, you occassionaly take glimpses at the game shown on the t.v. monitor right above you. Suddenly, the game is interrupted by a News "Special Report". It says that a commercial jetliner has just crashed into the mall in which you know that your wife and child are currently at right now.


You immediately drive to the mall only to notice that it is totally engulfed in flames. You see your wife's car in the parking lot and she's not there. Neither is your child. With people screaming and crying, and cops and firemen all over the place, the scene is of total chaos. And there is absolutely no one you can turn to for information about the whereabouts of your family. The fireman forces you to leave the disaster area that they now will cordon off from the public.


Helplessly, you go home. Maybe there will be a phone call or maybe you will see your wife and child on t.v. fleeing to safety away from the scene of the disaster.


Staring blankly at the phone, there's no way you can sleep tonight. The next day, you wait. No word from your wife and child. Day three, still no news. Day four, no phone call. Meanwhile, the news keeps reminding you that there are still no survivors found. However, volunteers interviewed on t.v. all claim that the best the search dogs can find are a body part here and there, mostly charred and unrecognizable. Day five, day six, day seven, ......still no survivors, and worse, no phone calls.


You go to the hospital and the morgue. Still no sign of your wife and child.


------------------------------------------------------


The purely hypothetical scene that I have just described is no doubt one that thousands of husbands, wives, mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, and friends are experiencing right now in New Yourk City.


If God-forbid the same thing happened to you, how would you, with your atheistic beliefs explain what just happened? How would you, with your atheistic beliefs, cope? Did you say "God-forbid" or "Heaven-forbid" as you were reading this post? Where do you think your loved ones will go, given your atheistic beliefs, after becoming, God-forbid, a victim of a terrorist attack similar to the one in the World Trade Center?

Didn't we have a discussion along these lines about a year ago, Rick? "Most Inane Lyrics", or something like that?


I think I voted for Paul Anka's "You're Having my Baby".

"What'll I do when you are far away and I am blue, what'll I do?"


Irving Berlin

John -- I find lot's of songs look bad when you just look at the lyrics alone as poetry, though they may be good songs nonetheless. I don't know if it's because lots of good song writers are not great poets (with exceptions like Gil Scott-Heron who was a poet before he was a song writer) or because great poetry may frequently not lend itself well to music. Probably both thoughts miss the mark.


Though It doesn't do as much for me now as it did when I was 20, I always thought Imagine was a pretty nice song. I think it works as a piece of music, but probably much less so as a poem. And I do agree with Jim's thoughts on the message. btw, you'll be hearing from Yoko's attorney shortly. ;^)

When I was younger, I thought atheism was pointless because religion was such a dead issue. Being an atheist, I reasoned, was tantamount to being against the flat earthers. How wrong I was. Ireland, the Middle East, all over the place they're killing people with god on their side.

That is indeed the question: "Where do you go?"


I don't see anything wrong with not knowing the answer to this, and I have not known the answer for so long that I have come to feel rather comfortable with not knowing the answer.


It's just another great mystery, and one of the most profound. Nothing wrong with that.

Lyrics aside, the music is incredibly insipid.

but that doesn't mean I have to make up an answer.


JG

Andy,


But picture Marlene Dietrich singing those words.


John

Ah, PV,


It's not a question of where they will go but where they will stay. In my memory they stay forever.


John

"how would you, with your atheistic beliefs explain what just happened?"


I guess by looking to religion you can explain what just happened? Please explain it to me. Was God punishing someone? Was he playing a joke? What? Please enlighten us non-believers.


"How would you, with your atheistic beliefs, cope?"


Probably cry. Feel sad for a very long time but try as best as I could to deal with it. How is this any different than the way you would cope?


"Where do you think your loved ones will go" I don't know. Possibly nowhere because they've just died.


The theme of your thread seems to be that believers are better able to deal with bad situations. I strongly disagree. Every individual is able to deal with things in their own way. Some need religion to cope and if it works for them then they should use it. There are a lot worse things one could use to cope such as drugs, alcohol, etc. but some people are able to cope without religion. If I don't believe, I don't believe, it's that simple. At least I am not phony about it. I don't go to church, I don't talk a good game and then not live up to it like so many others do.

What'ww I do when you awe faw away and I am bwue, what'ww I do?


(with apologies to the late Madeleine Kahn)

I don't see how believing in some spirit-in-the-sky would change any of this. But I'm not surprised that a christian would try to belittle someone who doesn't share their faith.


Also, I never say god forbid or heaven forbid, but I have been known to say goddammit. I don't say it because I believe, but because my father said it in every other sentence he spoke. To me, it's just an expression. I try not to say it around people who are offended by it though.


Why does it upset you that some people don't believe?

It does not upset me, you miserable vomitous mass of lunacy!!! It merely fascinates me.

Fascinates, maybe. Irritates, definitely. If you weren't so emotionally involved in this issue, maybe you could express your views without resorting to name-calling. It's beyond me why Vince thinks you have class. I think you're a jerkoff.

I don't know where they go. I don't believe Joseph Smith, Elijah, Muhamet ibn Abdallah, Jusua ben Joseph or any of the others "knew".


I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with not knowing the answer to some questions. When the difference in opinion over the answer to those questions are used as justification for mass murder, then I have to question the validity of any belief system that enforces a structure where such beliefs are possible.


It doesn't matter where they've gone. I mourn, I grieve, I remember, I go on. There's really nothing else anyone can do.


Jeff