Betting a strong draw (100NL 6max)

[jhall23]

PFR is pretty lag and not very great from what I have seen in my 2-3 orbits at the table.

Villian in this hand seems pretty average. A little passive pre-flop so far, not too agressive or passive post flop. I have seen him take stabs at pots with nothing.

Was really hoping to be raised on the flop.

Do you like to give it one last go on the river after villian has been so passive with the draws on board?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP ($66.75)
CO ($97.5)
Button ($94.15)
SB ($51.5)
Hero ($99)
UTG ($77.48)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.5.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $2</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls $2, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $1.

Flop: ($6.50) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $4</font>, MP folds, Button calls $4.

Turn: ($14.50) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $7</font>, Button calls $7.

River: ($28.50) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $15</font>

[fuzzbox]

I think check-raise is better in this spot, as then you see what button does after MP2 bets the flop. You dont mind getting all in on the flop, and you dont mind betting up to full pot on the turn (if you hit or miss), because you probably have 15 outs so if he calls you get your odds, and if he folds, then you win.

If you check, MP2 bets 5, button calls, pot is 17 when it gets back to you. Make it 20/25 here and see if anybody really likes it.

[jhall23]

[ QUOTE ]
I think check-raise is better in this spot, as then you see what button does after MP2 bets the flop. You dont mind getting all in on the flop, and you dont mind betting up to full pot on the turn (if you hit or miss), because you probably have 15 outs so if he calls you get your odds, and if he folds, then you win.

If you check, MP2 bets 5, button calls, pot is 17 when it gets back to you. Make it 20/25 here and see if anybody really likes it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Check raising the flop is certainly a good move that I will make. This time I tried to lead out so that the pot would be bigger if I got raised, so that I could then push.

[fuzzbox]

I do this sometimes too .... cept I find that ppl dont raise flops as much as I would like. When they flat call with their AK, now Im screwed if I miss the turn !!

[RiverFenix]

MP does not have to bet this flop as all he did was minraise therefore hoping for a c/r probably wont happen. And if it is checked through you lose info about opponents holdings and they gain a good amount of yours if the flush comes through (though straight is still well disguised) -- point is you would like to c/r here, but odds are you wont be able to.

Villian called river, right?

[jhall23]

[ QUOTE ]

Villian called river, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll post results later. So it seems you think villian called, what hand(s) do you put him on?

[RedRum]

Villian would probably only call the river here with a K, but I'd put him on any Kx where x &gt; 8. In order to make that call he's gotta be sure you're bluffing, or have something.

Your bets were almost the same as AK would play this, leading into each street and assuming you're ahead. I don't like his cold call of $7, but you'll have stolen the pot on the river unless he holds AK or his kicker hit the board.

Drink More,
RedRum

[montechristo]

[ QUOTE ]
PFR is pretty lag and not very great from what I have seen in my 2-3 orbits at the table.

Villian in this hand seems pretty average. A little passive pre-flop so far, not too agressive or passive post flop. I have seen him take stabs at pots with nothing.

Was really hoping to be raised on the flop.

Do you like to give it one last go on the river after villian has been so passive with the draws on board?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP ($66.75)
CO ($97.5)
Button ($94.15)
SB ($51.5)
Hero ($99)
UTG ($77.48)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.5.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $2</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls $2, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $1.

Flop: ($6.50) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $4</font>, MP folds, Button calls $4.

Turn: ($14.50) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $7</font>, Button calls $7.

River: ($28.50) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $15</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

Jhall - I would prefer to play this hand faster on the flop. Flush draw + open ender is a great hand, I might go for a biggish checkraise here or at least bet the pot. When you miss on the turn I would either check and see what the action is or make a bet of at least 2/3 of the pot. Being OOP sucks, you need to get more info in the hand somehow. When he calls your turn bet I am thinking maybe weak K or just club draws. I like that you fired again on the river, however if I am villain and I have a weak K I might call you.

[jhall23]

Results,

Villian has KQ and called it. Not suprised at that call at all with the strong King, I wouldn't expect a fold there from most players. Overall though I think the bet on the river is worth a shot incase villian was also drawing to something. With how passive villian was I think I should win with this bet on the river a good amount of the time.

[xorbie]

Check raise the flop all in.

[jonnyUCB]

a weak king which calls you twice calls you again on the river. Flush draw folds to a smaller bet - seems like all roads point to a smaller river bet if you hoped he was drawing. I'd make it 8 as it wouldn't make any more hands call that weren't going to and still folds the fl draw.

[jhall23]

[ QUOTE ]
a weak king which calls you twice calls you again on the river. Flush draw folds to a smaller bet - seems like all roads point to a smaller river bet if you hoped he was drawing. I'd make it 8 as it wouldn't make any more hands call that weren't going to and still folds the fl draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I like that and it should have been obvious. Can't really tell what the actual pot size was since the the converter doesn't take out rake, but I should be able to make it a little less. Probably 1/3 of the pot or so which could be about 8 bucks. I don't ever underbet below that so I don't want to go below 1/3.

But yeah, I should be able save a little more on these type of hands when they call. I was pretty much just playing it the same way I would play 56 and auto bet the 15.

[ QUOTE ]
Check raise the flop all in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Xorbie, I think the check/raise all in on the flop is okay, but the pot is so small that it isn't quite as good as it would be in a raised pot (real raise that is). My goal was the bet to build the pot then push when the lag comes over the top. That way there is a much better overlay for the push. No dice this time though.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Bet full pot on flop and then c/c or c/r turn. Hope he gives you a free look.

[jhall23]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet full pot on flop and then c/c or c/r turn. Hope he gives you a free look.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I was to check/raise the turn (which I did consider) would you make it anything other than all-in? Since there's only 1 card left and we don't end up having a tough situation like we would if we check/raise the flop and miss I think we could get away with not pushing. If called we can then only commit if we hit.

Agree or no?

If so how much do we need to bet to get a fold? Pot is 15 villian bets 10. Is bumping it to 40 enough? Too much? This is the amount that pops into my head as an amount that would get the job done. We then obviously have to call the all if villian pushes.

[xorbie]

[ QUOTE ]
Xorbie, I think the check/raise all in on the flop is okay, but the pot is so small that it isn't quite as good as it would be in a raised pot (real raise that is). My goal was the bet to build the pot then push when the lag comes over the top. That way there is a much better overlay for the push. No dice this time though.

[/ QUOTE ]

To some extent I agree with you, but leading into a field of two including the PF raiser is a bit of a scary move. I think if you have a really LAGgy raiser, he is probably going to always bet this K high flop, and there is a much higher chance that you get raised.

People with loose raising standards are not going to be raising this flop often with another player left to act and you betting into them because they so rarely have a hand to do so with. OTOH they will bet this quite often when checked to, and the third player left to act can either call (bloating the pot for your push) or raise (bloating the pot for your push).

[lawrence]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet full pot on flop and then c/c or c/r turn. Hope he gives you a free look.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correctamundo.