Final Table - Two Pair Line Vs. Maniac

[Phil2]

Live Final Table. Blinds are extremely small relative to the stacks: 3000/6000 with 1000 antes. 5 handed. Villian is extremely aggresive; borderline maniac. I think this is pretty standard, but thoughts on all streets are welcome.

Hero: 508,000
Villian: 557,000

UTG Folds, UTG2 Folds, Villian calls on the button, SB calls, Hero checks the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

Flop: (23,000) K /images/graemlins/club.gif 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

SB checks, Hero bets 15,000, Villian calls, SB folds.

Turn: (53,000) A /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Hero checks, Villian bets 20,000, Hero calls.

River: (93,000) 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Hero checks, Villian bets 60,000, Hero calls.

Nice final pot: 213,000

[HonchoOverload]

If this guy is a maniac, I raise the river at least 3x his bet. Why play like you might be beat? Sure, you could be, but it doesn't seem likely.

[durron597]

Perfectly played. Don't raise the river because he doesn't call with a hand that you beat.

[HonchoOverload]

he wouldn't even call a straight raise? why wouldn't he?

[A_PLUS]

I dont know if he doesnt call with a hand you can beat. The Villan played this hand like a weak Ace. The question is, did he pair his X card. Even if he didnt, he must call a min raise. There is a very good chance that the call is the correct play here, but I dont think it is a no brainer. It depends mostly on what kind of maniac this guy is.

[HonchoOverload]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont know if he doesnt call with a hand you can beat. The Villan played this hand like a weak Ace. The question is, did he pair his X card. Even if he didnt, he must call a min raise. There is a very good chance that the call is the correct play here, but I dont think it is a no brainer. It depends mostly on what kind of maniac this guy is.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is exactly what I put him on too...Ax. And I completely agree with your post.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont know if he doesnt call with a hand you can beat. The Villan played this hand like a weak Ace. The question is, did he pair his X card. Even if he didnt, he must call a min raise. There is a very good chance that the call is the correct play here, but I dont think it is a no brainer. It depends mostly on what kind of maniac this guy is.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he has a weak ace and didn't pair his X card, he either folds or pushes, and you can't call a push. If he did pair his X card, he always pushes (and that's why you can't call a push in case 1).

The problem with making a small raise is that you reopen the betting with a hand that can't handle a reraise.

[A_PLUS]

I understand the game theory logic behind your point. I also think you are probably right. Just trying to play devil's advocate. I am not completely sold that he will fold or push with AX that is only a single pair. Calling another 60k wont cripple him here, I think a large % of the time he calls.

For instance, if I am Villan with AX single pair,and am aware of my maniac image. The correct play would be to call the min raise getting apx 5-1 on my call. I dont want to push, b/c I will only get called when I am beat.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
If he has a weak ace and didn't pair his X card, he either folds or pushes

[/ QUOTE ]

why on earth would Ax reraise instead of calling?

[ QUOTE ]
and you can't call a push

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Villian is extremely aggresive; borderline maniac

[/ QUOTE ]

your comment might make sense against a different opponent, but not here.

i think hero needs to play this hand much faster, and be looking to get all-in.

i'd c/r a very aggro button. given the bet, i'd c/r the turn. an aggro villain might read this as a scared Kx hand and try to move you off it with a flush draw or 8x or whatever he has. check/calling the turn is too passive imo b/c there are a lot of draws out. and then i would c/r the river and pay off a push.

you have a very strong hand 5-handed against a "borderline maniac" - get the chips in.

[AlcateL]

I'm not one hundred percent sure what I would do in this situation but I'd sure be looking for a pot bigger than 200k vs a maniac. This is why we get into the hands against maniacs, to stack them.

[AlcateL]

I'd certainly c/r the turn to 60k and likely push the river. You have aa strong hand 5 handed and try to extract more chips.
However I can see how you've played it well in many ways, the pot isn't a small pot by any stretch of the imagination.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he has a weak ace and didn't pair his X card, he either folds or pushes

[/ QUOTE ]

why on earth would Ax reraise instead of calling?


[/ QUOTE ]

Because he's a maniac?

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he has a weak ace and didn't pair his X card, he either folds or pushes

[/ QUOTE ]

why on earth would Ax reraise instead of calling?


[/ QUOTE ]

Because he's a maniac?

[/ QUOTE ]

if you believe he's pushing Ax (and calling the flop with it), then that's all the more reason to c/r-call the river instead of check-call.

[A_PLUS]

If he really will either fold or push, then as long as we are 50/50 to have the best hand, our CEV is double if we raise and call his push. If the OP wants to post the payouts, I will calculate the $EV of this scenario.

**above isnt right, unless he always pushes. If he does it 50% of the time, we always lose to reraise. So the point of contention is how often he will call.

[Phil2]

[ QUOTE ]
For instance, if I am Villan with AX single pair,and am aware of my maniac image. The correct play would be to call the min raise getting apx 5-1 on my call. I dont want to push, b/c I will only get called when I am beat

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't see how people are putting villian on an A - an "extremely aggresive; borderline maniac" on the button in a five-handed game with Ax with so many chips in front of him and blinds so low is a recipie for a PF raise every time, yeah?

Thanks for the replies as always.

[nightlyraver]

That's why I like the smooth call on the end. He most certainly does not have an A. There is no hand he is paying you off with. Look at it from his shoes - maybe he has some kind of pair, maybe a draw, really doesn't matter. He decides to smooth call the flop and then fires out a bet on the turn to try and pick up the pot. Once he's called he gotta think he's either beat or drawing for the win. When checked to on the end, he tries to pick up the pot on the end. If I did that whole line and then was raise I'd be thinking, "Whoa - he's either got an A or better" and his pair or missed draw goes in the muck.

It's one thing to call a raise on the end when you're probably beaten but the pot odds are too good to pass up. It's quite another thing to call when there is no possible way of winning the pot. Say villian has a pair - alas, the only thing he can POSSIBLY beat is a stone bluff on the end and he would have to be REALLY good to be able to put you on a check-raise stone cold bluff on the river.

I like the play since he probably folds on the turn to a check raise, so you affectively got t60,000 more out of him. At absolute best, you check-raise him t60,000 on the turn and he MAY call on a drawing hand, but he can't call on the end if he misses and he won't bluff. The best case scenario is a break even situation IMO. You're either way ahead or way behind - let him just bluff at it.

[shutupndeal]

Im comin back over the top of this guy for the onions.....all-in without a doubt. My why is in the play itself, if he was holding something like a 5-6 he would have no doubt made a play at the pot that he would have attempted to make look like a steal attempt BUT instead he calls the original bet and here again if he flopped big like k-8 or a set I think he would have prob let Hero have it straight away (raise him) to test his hand strenghth but he doesnt, he now after the flop has Hero on a pair of 7's-8's or even a club draw and was prob suprised when Hero called the bet, I think he then made the final play surely thinking Hero is laying em down and I cant believe that Hero didnt punch his ticket for him or at least try. I give the guy a K with a good kicker BTW.

PS.. What we need is a Blog or a thread where we can post the entire hand so we can learn what happened after answering the post, this is gonna haunt me now but I am pretty confident about this. Just as confident as I have been the last 3 days as I blew 3/4 of my bankroll..... God its been rough BUT in self defense I did just pay for a few days off or a mini-vacation with all poker earnings and if I fall prey to that poker-jinx when ya cashout Im gonna just die. Yup, suicide is an option and Im so mad I dont wanna go on the trip now! lol

[locutus2002]

I like the flop bet. When he calls I think you have two choices: you either have to keep the pot small so that you can give up on it, or you can play like you have the best hand and you could lose a pile of chips if the wrong card shows up.

I probably lead the turn for 3/4 the pot
It's unlikely the ace helped him, as he would raise PF if he's aggro and has an ace. From his point of view the ace could have easily helped you.

The river was easy. I lead it again for 1/4 the pot.

What were you planning to do if a scare card showed up such as the T /images/graemlins/club.gif and villain bets T100,000?