Weird $215 hand

[hansarnic]

First hand of Level 1.

UTG min-raises and we get four callers to me on the button with K /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/heart.gif. I call and BB calls.

Flop is J /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

It's checked to me. Rather stupidly I bet 180.

BB now does a weird re-raise to 450 straight and UTG pushes. Everyone else folds back to me.

Never seen either of these two before. What do you do & why?

[curtains]

Well I would check the flop like a normal person to avoid this situation. Very important not to bet yourself out of action with a hand like this. You'd be better served thinking very hard about your postflop bet than about whether you should call all the stupid raises. This situation or one similar to it comes up too often and to continually bet here you will be making a big mistake over and over again.

[hansarnic]

[ QUOTE ]
You'd be better served thinking very hard about your postflop bet than about whether you should call all the stupid raises. This situation or one similar to it comes up too often and to continually bet here you will be making a big mistake over and over again.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree betting the flop is probably not the best line. But given the action & the texture of the flop I don't think it's that bad at all. If you are one of the callers & you make your set are you really checking with 7 to the flop on that board?? Most times I won't get CR here.

A more important reason not to bet is that the pot gets a little too bloated when I'm called even in one spot. This means if I'm betting the turn it really has to be a push. Alternative if I miss on the turn is to just take the free card & give up on the pot unless I hit.

So on balance I also prefer checking than betting, but I really don't think it's a 'big mistake'.

What about calling the re-raise? How often do you think either UTG or BB plays Ax /images/graemlins/heart.gif that way?

[kyro]

I think after you bet the flop, calling the raise becomes automatic.

[zambonidrivr]

what in the hell are you doing in this hand in the first place. someone flopped a set, and the other a straight draw

[SNOWBALL138]

I think UTG would have to be totally nuts here if he didn't have JJ. If he has JJ, that brings your number of outs down to 10.

I don't think it makes a big difference what you do here. Calling is ok here b/c you have pot odds. Pushing is ok, because you have positive equity vs. 2 players. Folding is ok because you still have 850 chips if you fold, right?

[hansarnic]

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what in the hell are you doing in this hand in the first place. someone flopped a set, and the other a straight draw

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you mean? Why did I call PF? Why did I bet? Or why am I considering calling the push?

[curtains]

I think it is a big mistake to bet the flop. Your hand's value here derives mostly from the chance of drawing to a big hand, and almost none from the chance that you are going to bet and take the pot down right now against 4 opponents on a J96 flop. You are risking getting raised off of such a powerful draw, and this is something I hate to do.

Meanwhile the reward for betting is relatively small, if all the players fold, okay that's good, but it's not even that big a deal since checking has +EV implications as well if the turn card is good. I mean look at the hand, getting raised off of your hand is exactly what happened and exactly the reason why you don't bet this hand. If you bet and then fold to a reraise you are basically throwing away the chance of winning a monsterous pot, solely because you couldn't resist betting into 4 opponents instead of taking an extremely valuable free card.

Unless moving allin is a reasonable sized bet, you just don't bet these flops in these situations.

[curtains]

btw I would probably call the 2 raises, but it's ridiculous because I would never bet in the first place and get myself in such an unpleasant spot. Against the one check raiser you are also in a very unpleasant situation which you should have never allowed.

[mosdef]

as a lower buyin player, my first instinct while reading this is "why did he call a raise preflop with K10s?".

1. can i get confirmation that this would be a terrible preflop call at the 33s down?

2. is it in fact correct at the 215s, and if so why?

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
as a lower buyin player, my first instinct while reading this is "why did he call a raise preflop with K10s?".

1. can i get confirmation that this would be a terrible preflop call at the 33s down?

2. is it in fact correct at the 215s, and if so why?

[/ QUOTE ]

There are five people already in and you are on the button. I think I'd make this call even with 800 chips, every single time.

Note: If you *then* go on to bet this flop, folding PF is fine.

[hansarnic]

[ QUOTE ]
as a lower buyin player, my first instinct while reading this is "why did he call a raise preflop with K10s?".

1. can i get confirmation that this would be a terrible preflop call at the 33s down?

2. is it in fact correct at the 215s, and if so why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, let me have a go:

1. At the 215s you get 1000 chips not 800 (so calling a raise is a lower % of your stack).

2. There are 5 to the flop by the time it gets to me so for 30 chips I should get to see a T200 flop with a nice drawing hand in position. Good pot odds, great implied odds.

3. Because you get 1000 chips, and because the players are better than in the 30s you generally won't see 4 gone by Level 4. In fact it's not unusual to still be ten-handed at Level 4, and somwetimes level 5. This means that it is not correct to pass up small edges in Levels 1-3, which you can afdford to do at lower buy-ins.

By the way, although the players are bad enough that you don't need to play KTs in this situation (as rarely as it will occur) at the 30s, I would argue that you probably still should as although you have less chips to play with your implied odds are actually better as your opponents (often more than 1 of them) will frequently stack off in a multi-way raised pot with not much at all.

[mosdef]

thanks. i'll give it some more thought.

if the next time i see this and call this preflop and then proceed to lose all my chips, i'll come to you looking for a refund of my buyin.

[durron597]

Fold, I put UTG on A/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif and the BB on A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif.

[hansarnic]

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Note: If you *then* go on to bet this flop, folding PF is fine.

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Heh /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I can see I have a hard job on my hands to defend my flop bet as just 'not great', rather than awful. I'll have one last go at it now & then give up & concede defeat.

First, let’s look at what happens when I check.

3 times in 4 I miss my draw. Now if there’s any reasonable bet (i.e. 200ish) I should really fold as I probably won’t get paid enough to make the call. 1 time in 4 I hit my hand, which is especially nice if it’s the str8, but what value do I make on average if it’s the /images/graemlins/heart.gif? I might make a big score but it’s definitely far from automatic as no-one indicated any strength on a drawy board on the flop.

These players shouldn’t be idiots (well they actually were in this case, but I wasn’t to know that) they aren’t just going to hand over their stack with no real hand, 6 opponents and a flush on board.

So when I check I think I win a medium-sized pot 1 time in 4 (possibly a little more for the times it gets checked round again), sometimes I’m lucky and win a big pot and 3 times in 4 I fold with most of my stack intact.

When I bet I think I take the pot down uncontested some of the time (1 time in 3, maybe a bit more I would estimate). Some of the time I get called and some of the time (and how often seems to be the contentious point) I get re-raised.

When I get called and make my hand on the turn I win a bigger pot. When I miss my draw, my chances of a free card are higher than when I check.

Anyway, interesting discussion. Curtains (& you?) clearly believe that betting is a major mistake here based on the % of the time I get re-raised. I just don’t see it happening that often with a drawy board and 7 to the flop so that's why I think it’s probably a small mistake at worst rather than a big one.

[schwza]

i think you're overestimating when you say you'll pick up the pot 1/3 of the time (but to be fair, i play at the 33) against 6 opponents. i think betting is bad, but probably not horrible.

it seems to me the odds are very good someone has a set. that puts your equity around 33%. i haven't done the icm, but i'm guessing with pot odds that makes it barely a call. and if someone does have the nut flush draw, it's a disaster to call. there's really nothing utg can have except a set, the nut flush draw, or maybe 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. i think it's a fold, but i'd be curious to see the icm numbers on getting in against a set and top pair.

[hansarnic]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold, I put UTG on A/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif and the BB on A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

nh

Black aces and Q9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, interesting discussion. Curtains (& you?) clearly believe that betting is a major mistake here based on the % of the time I get re-raised. I just don’t see it happening that often with a drawy board and 7 to the flop so that's why I think it’s probably a small mistake at worst rather than a big one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not even. It's really the number of times you get called with 6 others in (pretty much around 100%, give or take) coupled with the times you have a tough decision on the turn (around 75%, give or take.) Oh, and you're spending 1/5 of your stack on this bet so if you get called by more than one person, you're almost pot committed already. You don't have the room to make this bet.

edit: Incidentally, UTG may be a moron but BB played his hand perfectly.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]

edit: Incidentally, UTG may be a moron but BB played his hand perfectly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I think I would have led out of the BB hoping for a raise by QJ so I could get all my chips in on the flop. Raising to 450 puts him in a crappy position on the turn don't you think?

[adanthar]

Leading out is gonna get called as often as raised (remember there are 7 people in) and then you really have a problem when the turn is, say, the K /images/graemlins/club.gif.

When you raise to 450 most people in a 215 know that the rest of the chips are going in on the turn. The people that don't know that call a push anyway. I like this raise because it actually looks scarier than a push, if you think about it.

(The flip side the hand I posted last night - if I'm playing a donkey I'll often bet half my stack just because it looks smaller)

[durron597]

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[ QUOTE ]
Fold, I put UTG on A/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif and the BB on A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif.

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nh

Black aces and Q9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Woot woot. What I meant is that UTG played his hand exactly like he had aces w/o the ace of hearts, and the BB played like he had a flush draw and the 9 of hearts. Even though your flush draw is better with what he actually had, that's still two hearts gone out of the deck, though of course you have the gutshot outs too. Still not worth it here IMO.

In this case with the preflop action I think UTG is too likely to be trying to slow play aces you should take the free card since you don't want to face a check-raise with your hand. Though of course I'm not convinced he has aces until you actually get checkraised, but I'm very wary of a UTG minraise.

[Daliman]

Fold PF. EVERY time.

Flop bet is not terrible, but likely not taking down the pot 6 handed.

Calling after the allins is not a good idea, but not the worst idea in the world either. You would be calling 805 for an estimated 40% shot at ~2200 chips, equaling about 1200 chips total equity. At first glance, it seems to be a pretty easy fold, but for a 50% implied overlay on my $$$, I'm compelled to call and live with the results.

[hansarnic]

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[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, interesting discussion. Curtains (& you?) clearly believe that betting is a major mistake here based on the % of the time I get re-raised. I just don’t see it happening that often with a drawy board and 7 to the flop so that's why I think it’s probably a small mistake at worst rather than a big one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not even. It's really the number of times you get called with 6 others in (pretty much around 100%, give or take) coupled with the times you have a tough decision on the turn (around 75%, give or take.) Oh, and you're spending 1/5 of your stack on this bet so if you get called by more than one person, you're almost pot committed already. You don't have the room to make this bet.

edit: Incidentally, UTG may be a moron but BB played his hand perfectly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I guess we'll just have to disagree on the % of time I win it with the flop bet. I mean what hand is calling the initial PF raise, not betting the flop but calling 180 OOP? A big draw / combination hand is all. 2 pair or a set bet this flop virtually every time.

I agree I make life complicated for myself when I get called, which is actually the main reason not to bet it I think. But I do get to stack someone more easily when I play it this way so there are benefits and I also believe it may get me to the river for 180 where I won't get there for that if I check.

Anyway, no big deal, I agree with you that betting's probably not best, just don't believe that in this particular case with this board it's nearly as bad as it normally would be.

On the subject of BB's play I don't like the small raise here at all. It commits him, but not me.

Think about what happens if I call & the turn misses him. He has 500 back, the pot's at 1100 and he has a crappy draw OOP. He has to consider that he's most probably behind with 12 or maybe as few as 8 outs and no chance of me folding. What do you do now? Pushing is EV-, check-calling all-in is EV-. You have to fold, except you can't because I could be playing a draw (which he gave me odds to do) so assuming I didn't make a pair on the turn >9 he would now be folding the winner. So he really has no idea where he is and has made his life unecessarily difficult.

It's not a good play.

And yeah, we agree, UTG is a moreon.

[hansarnic]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold PF. EVERY time.

Flop bet is not terrible, but likely not taking down the pot 6 handed.

Calling after the allins is not a good idea, but not the worst idea in the world either. You would be calling 805 for an estimated 40% shot at ~2200 chips, equaling about 1200 chips total equity. At first glance, it seems to be a pretty easy fold, but for a 50% implied overlay on my $$$, I'm compelled to call and live with the results.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting. Why fold PF?

[adanthar]

I just don't think this kind of board hasn't hit anyone. There are *6* others in; there's a passive QT, KJ, JT, somebody's J9s that missed a CR, etc. in there somewhere. They're not supposed to check/call now but they do anyway. But you're right, if I thought this would get me a turn freebie I'd do it far more often - it's the flop CR's that you kinda have to know are coming half the time that really suck here and why I check.

The BB...well, what does he put you on? I think your range right now is AJ-QJ, maybe J9, but the way you are betting out you're gonna have a jack very often (especially since he has Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif which means Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/heart.gif isn't out, another flush draw probably doesn't bet this, etc.) or maybe a set, but that's irrelevant since if you have a set the chips are going in. He has 14 outs against those (12 if you have QJ or J9) and the scare equity against a jack twice. What's he gonna do instead, check/call the flop and invite KJ in MP to call behind, or push now which just looks really weird?

edit: Betting the flop into 6 people is a really good idea if you know for sure UTG will raise and a really bad one if you get 4 calls out of it. In a game where 6 people called a minraise, well, you know.

[DonButtons]

I know adanthar is quite a lag, because everytime I limp, he always limps behind me, I guess he wants to bust me /images/graemlins/smile.gif. But Ill echo a couple people here, the best play is prob. to fold preflop as your post flop skills early in a $215 dont seem that great. Since you called the preflop bet (which isn't that bad if you touch up your post flop play), this is a definite check behind situation, no question. I mean 6 people in the pot, you cant ask for a free turn, IMO.

Now, since it turned all fishy, do what all donkeys do.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
edit: Betting the flop into 6 people is a really good idea if you know for sure UTG will raise and a really bad one if you get 4 calls out of it. In a game where 6 people called a minraise, well, you know.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say its great if you get 3+ calls from it and great if you get raised. It sucks when you get 1 caller though...
Anyway, back to the BB. I think he really has to be this flop. Most players will put him junk or a monster. Those that put him on junk are raising their J. Those that put him on a monster can be swatted off on the turn.

Betting the flop and getting called is far better than C/Ring less than pot and ending up with a massive pot OOP on the turn.

IMO of course. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Thoughts?

[adanthar]

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I know adanthar is quite a lag, because everytime I limp, he always limps behind me, I guess he wants to bust me /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, usually, I just want 4 more people to limp behind the two of us so I can hit a set. I know you're not paying me off enough on your own /images/graemlins/smile.gif

4 calls brings up that same situation where you're either check/folding or pushing and they both suck and God that pot is so big but when QJ calls anyway I'm gonna feel dumb.

I think CR'ing is gonna at least make QJ fold. Maybe. I guess the most +EV move in this whole hand is to find that table again and never leave.

[Daliman]

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[ QUOTE ]
Fold PF. EVERY time.

Flop bet is not terrible, but likely not taking down the pot 6 handed.

Calling after the allins is not a good idea, but not the worst idea in the world either. You would be calling 805 for an estimated 40% shot at ~2200 chips, equaling about 1200 chips total equity. At first glance, it seems to be a pretty easy fold, but for a 50% implied overlay on my $$$, I'm compelled to call and live with the results.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting. Why fold PF?

[/ QUOTE ]

\Because you are more often going to hit your pair than your flush, and if you are limping in with this in early stages, you likely do not posess the self-control to fold it properly.

[kyro]

That seems like a bold, unsubstantiated statement.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
That seems like a bold, unsubstantiated statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do that at times, but few top 215'ers limp KTs. Trap hand.

[kyro]

My impression of OP was that he wasn't putting in his stack with top pair. Now, personally, I think it is a fold, but I think your statement was a little unfair.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That seems like a bold, unsubstantiated statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do that at times, but few top 215'ers limp KTs. Trap hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling here with KTs is better than calling 1/3 of a stortstack's button raise with QTo in the BB.

[Daliman]

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My impression of OP was that he wasn't putting in his stack with top pair. Now, personally, I think it is a fold, but I think your statement was a little unfair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's put it this way; I fold KQ early stages there. I have had pretty good success, and am better able to get away from a hand than most. Also, I was speaking in broad terms when I said "you". It wasn't specifically in reference to him, but then again, considering the flop bet, it's probably pretty accurate. Not trying to be a jerk, just calling them like i see them.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That seems like a bold, unsubstantiated statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do that at times, but few top 215'ers limp KTs. Trap hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling here with KTs is better than calling 1/3 of a stortstack's button raise with QTo in the BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me no get. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

Me no get. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I was referring to a hand that I thought was yours but when I went back and checked it was actually sirio11's. It was when Chau Giang called sirio's PFR when sirio had 99 and Chau had QTo in the WSOP rebuy.

[kyro]

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but then again, considering the flop bet

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I lose.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
I do that at times, but few top 215'ers limp KTs. Trap hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh, come on, there are 5 people in this pot besides you already and you've got the button. OK, if you're gonna bet whenever you hit a king or a draw, fold PF, but boy those implied odds sure look juicy.

[DonButtons]

Pretty simple rule, the better you are post flop the more hands you play, if your terrible post flop, play hands that play themselves only. But this also contradicts common sng rules that top players use to beat sngs for a decent roi%. Point is, you dont have to play this hand to make good money at sngs, most of your sng success comes from 80% late game, no point to get frisky early (let the fish do that/images/graemlins/grin.gif). Ill concur with dali here that I also fold KQ there. Pocket pair is different for a min. raise, but no point to but yourself in a tough spot, specially if you cant play post flop well.

[curtains]

I'd rather have KTs than KQo here.

[DonButtons]

Dont get me wrong, I like s00ted hands too, you saw me get that straigh flush with 87s in that sng you did that "PVS" thing with T9s...haha

[curtains]

hehe at least when I do a rare PVS I don't feel compelled beyond restraint to post it. I do think it was as good of a time to do so as possible, what do you think? I really do that pretty rarely unless I have a very legitimate hand.