Tipping

[Clarkmeister]

Anyone else feel like a real jerko if they don't tip on a hand, regardless of how small the pot? Other than hands where I steal the blinds, I feel pressure to tip on every hand.

How to solve this?

[pudley4]

Recently I decided to change how I tip. I used to tip a buck from most pots I won. Now, I only tip at the end of a dealer's 30 minutes at my table. I'll only tip if the dealer has done a good job. If they expose cards, miscall hands, are distracted and don't keep the game moving, then I don't think they deserve a tip.

I still feel weird when I win a big pot and don't tip, but as long as I'm consistent, I think it's ok.

Yes, I will tip even if I haven't won a hand during the time a dealer is at my table.

[Sooga]

Yea, when the pot is super small (blind-steal or something like that), I usually just actively convince myself that I forgot to tip the dealer. Takes some practice, but it's well worth it!

[Ed Miller]

I feel the same way... I tip on every hand I win as long as there was a flop. I generally play 4-8 as well... where a $1 tip can be a sizable portion of the pot. Then again, I'm not playing to win money (at least not yet)... I'm just playing to get better... and maybe win money in the future.

Having said that... I have to admit that I was a little shocked by the Vegas practice of tipping a half instead of a buck. This does not provide dealers with a very good living...

[Ed Miller]

Hrmm... that's an interesting idea. $2 per down seems like a fair tip to me...

[MD_]

The pressure you feel to tip even on small pots is self induced. When you win a pot, just consider the size and tip appropriately. I usually tip one dollar on a pot over 25 chips, and nothing on the smaller ones. I also like to tip a dealer a buck for enforcing a rule that most wouldn't (Like folding out of turn, or English only even between players not in a hand). I know that enforcing the rules is just part of their job, but having dealt myself, I know how hard it can be sometimes.

-MD

[Noo Yawk]

I tip every pot I win, reguardless of size. Not because I feel bound by custom, but because it feels like the right thing to do.

[oddjob]

you don't have to pretend you didn't tip. i tip pretty well, cause i'm there for fun. the dealers at teh casino are super cool and keep things moving well. a lot of the dealers don't expect a tip if there's no action. in fact a lot of times i'll throw a dealer a tip on a super small pot i didn't expect to win, and they'll throw it back telling me to wait for a bigger pot.

[bernie]

tip? i just tell the bimbo to deal the cards and get the cocktail whore to get me shot. they oughtta be grateful im even gracing their table, much less acknowleging em.

kidding...JUST KIDDING /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

i get along with just about every dealer/brush/floorperson in my normal room...and many of them know im serious about the game from dealing to me...and watching.

on pots under $30, i generally dont tip....and have never felt bad or gotten any looks about it...it also has to be a very large pot to tip more than $1. im also very nice to the dealers and plead their case, and let em know how thankless their jobs are and that i appreciate them. (yes, there are some A hole dealers i can care less about, but this is in general) i think the kind words make up for when i dont tip the small pots. they dont hear them that often, especially when they deserve to.

a tourney i was in a bit ago, after i won a pot, my reflex was to throw a chip to em...and id have to stop myself (tourney chips)...the dealer noticed this a few times, they saw my arm twitch and me hesitate a little. so i mentioned it...and they seemed to enjoy their time a little more dealing my table for that rotation. at least i think they did....

b

[bernie]

"Having said that... I have to admit that I was a little shocked by the Vegas practice of tipping a half instead of a buck. "

i was suprised when i saw that too...in fact the dealer would make $1 change during the hand...it was a 2-6 spread game...

but MK, ask the dealers at mucks if theyd rather deal in nevada? the unanimous reponse i got, from experienced dealers, was 'hell no!" it's well said up here among the staff that nevada/vegas dealers put up with alot more crap for less pay than up here....it was kind of interesting

b

[bernie]

it doesnt come up that often but ive tipped when theyve enforced a rule before...especially when the players a jerk yet the dealer still maintains control of the table...

the extra $1 is like a nice thank you....and they rarely expect it from a player not in the hand. if this was a home game, 10 mins later, we may still not be to the next hand.

b

[Ray Zee]

clarky, just add up all the tips you give in a year. three pots an hour in full games maybe. times ten hours, times 300 days. close to ten grand a year. alot to overcome if you are playing less than 30&60 and even then it is maybe 20% of your total gross income. if you play smaller it might be all your winnings. alot to give away to people who do deserve better pay, but do little for you as an individual.

[Vehn]

I don't tip if no one puts money into the pot on the flop besides me. Pretty simple. As far as you "feeling bad" when you don't tip 5% or more of a tiny pot that took 20 seconds to complete, I don't feel bad when I checkraise some idiot on the river and put him all in for his last $3. Anyways, dealers understand if they don't get tipped on a small pot, if they don't they can enjoy never getting tipped from me again and I don't have a problem letting them know that. There's one guy at my card room who doesn't tip at all. He's a pariah, but he's a pariah with a lot more money (theoritically) than me.

[Hobart]

I generally play between 15-30 and 30-60. When I drag a pot I usually toke 1 or 2 dollars, except on unusually large pots maybe up to a nickle. Some guys in Las Begas ( not a misspell ) are so tight it is incredible. Some guys treat dealers like crap in more ways than one. Lower stake may justify half a dollar but this is an individual decision. Dealers have to live like you and I. I'm sure the subject of incompetant dealers will be brought up.

[rusty JEDI]

i am reading an older book (late 80's early 90's i think)called "big deal" a year in the life of a professional poker player, and in it the author mentions that toking was illegal in cardrooms in the Britain, is that true? and is it still true today?

[Bob T.]

If a dealer gets 40 hands per hour out, and they get $.50 a hand, add in minimum wage, give them three half hour breaks, and I think it all adds up to about 45K a year. That isn't an incredible amount of money, but it also is a reasonable living wage. If you make an occasional buck or two, you are up to 60K. I think that that is at least a fair trade for dealing.

Good Luck,
Play Well,

Bob T.

[Bob T.]

I think you just have to have a plan on when to tip, and when not to. Then follow it, just like you follow your other plans about how to play. I usually adjust for dealer performance. There are a couple of dealers who would really have to improve to ever recieve a tip, and a couple who always get a dollar regardless of pot size.

Good Luck,
Play Well,

Bob T.

[Vehn]

Out of curiousity Bob I'd assume you're refering to Canterbury dealers. I wonder who you think are the best/worst? As far as my "favorites" I would say Vang (for fastest) Kevin Jesse and Paul (PJ). For worst, I never got along with Craig for some reason, Christopher tends to annoy me, Karen doesn't actually shuffle (watch her), and there's 2 very tall guys who I can't place their names who are just brutally slow.

[Wingnut]

Would anyone change their feelings if the tips were pooled among the dealers rather than kept individually? I know that different places have different policies. I would find it hard to nicely tip a good dealer if I knew that they wouldn't get to see all of it. Conversely, it's hard to stiff a bad dealer when he gets a cut of everyone's tokes.

Would it be bad form to ask the dealer when you first sit down whether or not they pool tips? I was able to do this (ask) in a restaurant before, but I knew the waiter that I asked personally (he wasn't waiting on my table, but I wanted to know if I could make a statement about the poor service a particular waiter had given us several times). In that case, the waiters kept their individual tips, so it was easy to stiff the guy /forums/images/icons/grin.gif .

[pudley4]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
2 very tall guys who I can't place their names who are just brutally slow

[/ QUOTE ]

I think one is Mark - big guy, glasses. Not sure the other one

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Karen doesn't actually shuffle (watch her)

[/ QUOTE ]

Which Karen, the older one or younger one?

Christopher (thankyouthankyou) is the worst - I haven't had a time where he hasn't exposed cards or dealt them off the table. Every time he deals he's been completely distracted. One time he was dealing a tournament - he let the wrong player sit at his table. It wasn't a simple mistake like the guy's card had table 3 seat 4 and he tried table 4 seat 3. It was more like the card was table 3 seat 4 and he tried table 8 seat 7 /forums/images/icons/shocked.gif Of course, they didn't notice until about 15 minutes into the tourney when the correct guy tried to sit down in his seat...

[Vehn]

Older Karen. She kind of pathetically tents up two halves of the deck and drops them together, lovely.

And I agree about Christopher, he is by far the worst &amp; most annoying at the same time, amazingly. I was just being nice because the Internet is no place to semi-anonymously bash someone.

(.....)

[pudley4]

touche /forums/images/icons/blush.gif

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I'm pretty sure they pool at Foxwoods &amp; Mohegan.

[Ulysses]

I play recreationally, so it's not a big deal for me, but there's an interesting (but not surprising) dynamic where I play the most, AJs.

At 3-6, most everyone tips one $1 chip for small/medium pots, 2 or 3 chips for big pots. $5 on a $100 pot is not uncommon.

At 6-12, most everyone tips one $1 chip for small pots, one $2 chip for medium pots, 2-3 $2 chips for big pots.

At 15-30, most everyone tips one $1 chip for all pots, with the occassional $2 or $5 chip for a really big pot.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

If you were working a "regular" job, would you feel guity not tossing the H/R guy a couple of bucks when he gave you your pay check?

That being said, I play in B&amp;M rooms seldom enough that it hasn't impacted me yet, but if I start playing live regularly, I'll adjust what I do. Right now I toss the dealer $1 for each pot i win that's not small (subjective). So far, every dealer in FW and Mohegan has said "thank you, sir" when I toss the tip in.

My feeling is the first time I don't get a "thank you" may be the last time I tip.

[Clarkmeister]

Some great responses. Thanks.

Here is a follow up. Part of the reason I feel bad stems from my table image.

I actively foster a fun, chatty, gambling environment. I am always the best friend of the fish at the table. I am constantly poking fun at myself, the dealers and others. Unless its a table of total sourpuss regulars, I can turn any table into a party. So all of that said.....it looks bad when the chatty jokester is being a cheapskate with his tips.

Also, since I am frequently teasing and joking with the dealers, I tend to quickly develop a very friendly repoire with them. Thus it feels like I am screwing a 'friend' because of the way I am behaving. In some ways, I am creating my own problem.

[polarbear]

The logic sounds great, but I've figured out it doesn't exactly work that way. I play at the Taj, and here's what happens.

First of all, dealers don't get paid minimum wage, only about $4 an hour. Second, there's no way a dealer's going to get 40 hands per hour out. Maybe at holdem, but more than half of the tables are stud, and there's no way to get 40 hands per hour out at stud. Furthermore, many of the stud tables are 1-3 and 1-5 spread limit, where the games are slower and dealers are lucky to get any tips at all. Add in the few omaha games, where there's no way to get close to 40 hands per hour, and 50 cent tips with $4 an hour will add up to much less than 45K a year.

[Glenn]

"...will add up to much less than 45K a year. "

Ok, now I tip pretty well in general and am always nice to dealers but how much do you think they deserve to make exactly? The job is easier than most other jobs. 45K a year is more than many policemen, teachers, firemen, etc... make. The fact is that you can become a dealer with a few months training, and all you have to do is deal cards, push pots, and read the board. Yes, it can be stressful at times, but what job isn't exactly? I mean city bus drivers get paid less and also have stressful jobs while probably contributing more utility to society. With current tipping/salary standards, dealers do very well for their level of education. At a decent casino dealers will average $15/hr or much more. Not bad for 2 months of training! With 4 years of good college most graduates will be lucky to start at 45K.

[kdog]

Foxwoods pools,Mohegan poker dealers keep their own except for tournaments.

[Andy B]

I don't want to needlessly bash anyone in a public forum, but I will say that the absolute worst dealer Canterbury Park ever had doesn't work there anymore, and the second-worst dealer has gotten a whole lot better. Come to think of it, I haven't seen him in a while, either. Maybe that's what happens when you go from playing four times a week to twice a month.

And if any of those dealers ask me who this vehn_ is that's slamming them on the internet, I'll be sure to point you out. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[Vehn]

Well Harold hasn't been roughed up yet by CP dealers so I'm probably ok.

Alright nevermind that he's 200 lbs heavier than me..

[Bob T.]

I guess I would rather not say who is the worst. I have history with a lot of those dealers, because many of them came from mystic, and what I know from there probably carries over into my judgement of them at Canterbury. Also, some people who might not be the best dealers, are people who I might see in outside social situations.

The main thing that bothers me, besides incompetence in the mechanics, is lack of enforcement of the rules and procedures. In one game, I was sitting next to a foreign player who had a friend sweating him. More than once, they broke out in a discussion in their language while the player was involved in a hand. It seemed that they were violating discussing the hand in progress, one player to a hand, and the english only rule. I suggested to them that they might use english while he was playing a hand, and the dealer told me that he was in charge of the game and that I wasn't there to enforce the rules. Then he did nothing about it. After the push, the next dealer came in and enforced the rule from the first hand, and there wasn't a problem. The first dealer is one of the ones that doesn't usually get tipped, and I know other people have had problems with him. The second one I usually give a drive by tip to at the end of a good session.

Another dealer, misread a hand and mucked it, and was pushing the pot to the wrong player. When I stopped him, he told me that I was wrong, and continued to push the pot to the wrong player, even though the other player and most of the table had read the hand correctly and agreed that a mistake was occurring. He was unfriendly for a long time after that hand, but seems to have forgotton it now. This dealer never accepted performance discussions well he was at mystic, so it might have been a carry over from there.

[limon]

&amp; the cute dealers still date me so it must be ok.

[Tyler Durden]

Your image at the table is a great one to have. By making friends with the fish and encouraging them to stay and lose their money, you're making money in the long run. This means you'll still come out ahead if you tip the dealers. Just don't tip on the small pots. Like if you bet on the flop and everyone folds, don't tip.

[morgan]

No insight here - just a funny story. In a short-handed hand of 1-3 stud with no ante I was in a month ago, my friend was the bring-in (for one dollar) and everyone folded to him! He took back his one dollar and tipped the dealer with it! The next hand he won a significant amount more.

[danny_c]

I also play at Canterbury. I agree that Vang is a very, very good dealer. The best I ever saw there was Matt, who moved out to Vegas a few months ago.

Most of the dealers at Canterbury are competent and well-trained. I always thought PJ and Jesse did a pretty good job, never had any issues with them. I was in a tournament a couple weeks ago and Jesse handled a dispute very well.

I never noticed any dealers not shuffling - I'll definitely look for that!

WRT the topic of tipping, I tend to overtip, especially in the stud games that are raked to $4.50 + $1 jackpot. Sheesh.

[CFunk]

I always tip a dollar. If I don't I have trouble looking at the dealer and not feeling cheap. Then somebody will give the dealer a two or three dollar tip and I really feel like a chump. At least at the monte carlo you can tip the quarters so it feels like your giving away less.

CT

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Z has it nailed here. Babe

[balt999]

I'll usually tip unless I only win the blinds....even then..I feel like a real cheapo..but then again, who says poker players like to spend their money...most of them are the cheapest people I've ever met....For God sakes, comb your hair once in a while...

I love going in the Bellagio and seeing all the beautiful people, then walk into the poker room and see someone with shorts, a white T-shirt and dirty sandals.... /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Clark:

[/i]Also, since I am frequently teasing and joking with the dealers, I tend to quickly develop a very friendly repoire with them. Thus it feels like I am screwing a 'friend' because of the way I am behaving. In some ways, I am creating my own problem.[/i]

I don't believe that this is something you want to do. In our book The Professional Poker Dealer's Handbook we emphasize to the dealers that they should only talk as necessary to run the game, and that they should concentrate on dealing as many hands as possible. The more hands dealt, the more the house will rake (in rake games), and the more you as a good player will make.

When you talk and joke with the dealers, you not only encourage them to deal less hands, you also encourage them not to pay attention. In my experience the worse situations that occur at the table are when there is a dispute and the dealer does not describe the situation correctly because he was not paying attention.

I also believe that dealers appreciate those regular players who are well behaved, are not loudmouths, and who do not slow down the game. If you're polite and pleasant, but don't engage them in conversation, in my opinion you will still achieve the same results.

best wishes,
mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Clark:

I haven't read all the posts, but here is my view, and the view that I believe that most professional players should have.

I view dealing as a service. Dealers who do a good job help me, and thus deserve a tip. Dealers who talk constantly in the box, who don't pay attention, who try to make decisions on their own, who argue with the players, etc. are doing a poor job and should be compensated accordingly.

On the other hand, dealers who deal quickly, are essentially error free, and pay attention meaning that when a dispute develops they can describe it accurately to the floorperson who will make the decision are actually helping you, thus they are the ones who deserve a little extra compensation.

If you approach it this way, I think that tipping dealers becomes a non-issue because you know that those who are deserving are compensated accordingly.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Toro]

It definitely changes my feelings about tipping where the dealers pool their tips. I play in Connecticut and in one casino they keep their tips and in the other they pool. A lot of us regulars think there is a definite difference in the overall quality of the dealers in these respective places. We have been unsuccessful in getting the pool tip casino to change their policy so as a protest, many of us don't tip at this establishment. Seems harsh but we feel it is the only thing we can do to try and change the policy.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Bull:

You may be right, but in my experience dealer quality is often a direct reflection of management quality. I'm curious if I'm right in this case since I have never been to Connecticut.

Best wishes,
Mason

[ACPlayer]

Pooling tokes with the pit is a bad managment decision. It results in the dealers not having the same stake as the card room or the players. They are now the only people in the room who are not motivated to get the most hands out in a half hour. FW made a bad mgmt decision and it shows in the quality of the dealers.

When the Taj switched from shared tokes to individual tokes the dealer quality went up. More dealers wanted to deal in the high stake games where the tips are better, they learnt to move more hands every half hour (at least most of them did). At FW still, a dealer would much rather deal 5 hands in a 1-3 stud game than try to deal 20 or more hands in a tight 10-20 hold em game.

Yes, it is a reflection of a poor management decision. FW could improve their revenue with this change (USE THE MONEY TO HIRE CHIP RUNNERS IF YOU [FW] ARE LISTENING) and create a better game for the players.

[Toro]

Acplayer, you sound like your very familiar with FW because your post was right on. As I mentioned in my earlier post, some of us players tried to get the mgmt to change the policy but their solution was to let the dealers vote on itand the dealers overwhelmingly voted against changing the policy. There was also a rumor that the poker room at FW lost 200K in 2001. This concerned me since if true they could consider cutting back the size or even eliminate the room. I wrote a letter to the manager which outlined how a change in the tip policy would result in x number of hands times the # of tables, etc which would result in wiping the deficit and making the room profitable. To date, though, to no no avail. Maybe I'll copy and send the relevant portions of this thread to them. Thanks.