getting serious with SNG's - software question [Archive]

iMsoLucky0

06-10-2005, 03:35 AM

None of those are necessary. Aleo's Spreadsheet's newest version is though. If you want to use pokertracker/gametime or playerview get it, but by no means is it necessary. Pokerprophecy is just kind of a neat thing to have. You can look up stats for random people that you want to know about (but it is very unaccurate).

What level SNGs are you going to be playing? How mnay at a time?

freemoney

06-10-2005, 03:36 AM

for sit n gos i dont think pokertracker is important, at least i dont use it, prophecy is kinda amusing, and helps to confirm suspicions on real solid players and real fish. the SNG tracker that hood has created, i dont have the link, is really cool and convenient. also SNG PowerTools i think alot of the better posters have recommended but i havent used it.

Hood

06-10-2005, 05:32 AM

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the SNG tracker that hood has created, i dont have the link, is really cool and convenient.

[/ QUOTE ]

sng.pokercomment.com (http://sng.pokercomment.com)

DonButtons

06-10-2005, 05:43 AM

spread sheet is all you need.

pokerprophecy can help pin point all the regulars/donks, and it helps when making borderline decisions.

pokertracker is nice, but too much work for me, I didnt like importing 25-50 sng hh files every night...

deathpotato

06-10-2005, 06:12 AM

As freemoney said, if you're relatively new to SNGs, or even just feel like you have a slightly incomplete understanding of the ICM and bubble strategy, I think Eastbay's tool (SNG power tools) is really invaluable. You can learn a lot by playing around and tweaking variables and observing what impact they have on players' equity. As the bubble is crucial to winning play, this is almost certainly a good investment for a serious player.

brimstone1

06-10-2005, 07:02 AM

Playerview and gametime are the same thing, and, they're free to download and use.

I discourage anyone buying Pokerprophecy just to "discourage" pokerprophecy from spamming the [censored] out of poker tables.

If they actually become successful by spamming the tables, this BS will go through the roof.

Plus, their sample DB is quite inaccurate.

Pokertracker is a pretty damn good way of keeping track of stuff, replay tournes, go over hands, etc.

But, if you're -only- going to "play" SnGs and not really go back and go over your own plays, watch yourself, the spreadsheet is more than enough to keep track of your bankroll.

Edit: oh, yeah, "eastbay and his tool" rule -- again, only if you're going to study and work towards improvement. otherwise, just enjoy yourself and I hope I see you at the tables =D

viennagreen

06-10-2005, 07:04 AM

i think prophecy is worth it... don't depend on it being accurate for players that it has tracked less than 100 SNGs for though... in actuality, it's a pretty crappy piece of software, but does pay for itself.

eastbay's SNG tool is definitely valuable

and some good spirits--- grey goose and bombay sapphire are my choices--- to ease the pain of the rough patches.

rickr

06-10-2005, 08:21 AM

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Playerview and gametime are the same thing, and, they're free to download and use.

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Not the same thing, and from my understanding Playerview now costs like $50

Later,
Rick

curtains

06-10-2005, 08:43 AM

Why is the spreadsheet thing better than Pokertracker? I don't understand, what does it do that PT doesnt?

schwza

06-10-2005, 10:48 AM

is eastbay's tool free?

wuwei

06-10-2005, 10:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
is eastbay's tool free?

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Nope. Check Eastbay's profile for the link.

wuwei

06-10-2005, 10:54 AM

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Why is the spreadsheet thing better than Pokertracker? I don't understand, what does it do that PT doesnt?

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I believe it provides many more descriptive statistics on your data. I've never used the spreadsheet, though, as PT does more than enough for me.

Jonathan

06-10-2005, 11:08 AM

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Why is the spreadsheet thing better than Pokertracker? I don't understand, what does it do that PT doesnt?

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I use both Pokertracker and Hoods version of the spreadsheet.
One thing I like about Hood's program is that it is easy to
import the hand histories from Eurobet without the need for
the tournament summaries. I have problems getting the tournament summaries
from eurobet, and as a consequence my data in PokerTracker is
incorrect.
I think that the data in Hood spreadsheet is more accurate.

Of course, if you are playing on party or pokerstars, then you wouldn't have this problem, and PokerTracker has more data and
functionality.

I like them both.

Eastbay's program costs money. The cost will easily
be recouped, with interest, after a few sessions of play.

Suerte,
Jonathan

schwza

06-10-2005, 11:16 AM

sorry for laziness and not looking myself, but does the tracker auto-import from the hard drive for party skins stt's?

Che

06-10-2005, 11:35 AM

Thanks to all who have replied so far!

Several posters have made qualified comments along the lines of "if you're serious" or "if you're a noob" so I guess I should have given that info up front.

I'll be playing the $55's to start. I played a few over the last few weeks (small sample, I know /images/graemlins/cool.gif) and my subjective assessment is that they are rather soft.

I'll start with 3 tables for a day or two while I get the hang of it, and then I'll move to 4. Once I get comfortable with the pace of playing 4 tables, I'll probably move to the $109's and then stay there for a reasonable length of time unless I find out that my basic skills suck and that my ability to win is *very* read-based. Not sure what I'll do if that's the case, but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

As for PokerTracker, sounds like everyone that uses it uses it to track their results, not to get scouting reports on opponents. Is this true? I've played around with it a little in the past, and it just doesn't seem like it's worth the effort if that's all you use it for. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, though...

Also, I'm glad some of you mentioned Eastbay's tools (i.e. something that wasn't on my list). I meant to include an "am I missing something" question but forgot. It sounds like Eastbay's tools are targeted at sng rookies, but I'll check them out anyway.

Finally, if anyone would like to comment further on the utility of Gametime and Playerveiw, that would be great! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Later,
Che

gumpzilla

06-10-2005, 11:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Also, I'm glad some of you mentioned Eastbay's tools (i.e. something that wasn't on my list). I meant to include an "am I missing something" question but forgot. It sounds like Eastbay's tools are targeted at sng rookies, but I'll check them out anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't used them myself, but I don't believe that they do anything that you can't do yourself with PokerStove and dethgrind's ICM page. It's obviously a lot faster, so if you do those kinds of calculations often it may be worthwhile.

eastbay

06-10-2005, 11:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Also, I'm glad some of you mentioned Eastbay's tools (i.e. something that wasn't on my list). I meant to include an "am I missing something" question but forgot. It sounds like Eastbay's tools are targeted at sng rookies, but I'll check them out anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't used them myself, but I don't believe that they do anything that you can't do yourself with PokerStove and dethgrind's ICM page. It's obviously a lot faster, so if you do those kinds of calculations often it may be worthwhile.

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually stay out of these threads, but that's just not correct. There are several probability calculations going into this that neither pokerstove nor the ICM webpage can do.

eastbay

schwza

06-10-2005, 11:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Also, I'm glad some of you mentioned Eastbay's tools (i.e. something that wasn't on my list). I meant to include an "am I missing something" question but forgot. It sounds like Eastbay's tools are targeted at sng rookies, but I'll check them out anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't used them myself, but I don't believe that they do anything that you can't do yourself with PokerStove and dethgrind's ICM page. It's obviously a lot faster, so if you do those kinds of calculations often it may be worthwhile.

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually stay out of these threads, but that's just not correct. There are several probability calculations going into this that neither pokerstove nor the ICM webpage can do.

eastbay

[/ QUOTE ]

which are....?

gumpzilla

06-10-2005, 11:51 AM

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I usually stay out of these threads, but that's just not correct. There are several probability calculations going into this that neither pokerstove nor the ICM webpage can do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you clarify, then? I'm assuming that what you're talking about is that one needs to calculate the probability that you get called depending on your position and the ranges that you're up against in order to get accurate results. While that is a slightly annoying calculation, it's one that I think people can do far easier than they can do ICM calculations or equity calculations by hand, so I don't consider a separate program necessary for that. When I'm doing calculations for pushing, I generally do that stuff by hand, and though it's probably slightly inaccurate with lots of players in (pushing from UTG, if the first few people fold I believe that means that there's a slightly better chance that somebody near the end has a big hand, as a rule), I think it's good enough.

curtains

06-10-2005, 11:52 AM

eastbays program is about a million times more useful than pokerstove+the ICM calculator. To me those are nearly worthless whereas eastbays is very valuable.

gumpzilla

06-10-2005, 11:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]

eastbays program is about a million times more useful than pokerstove+the ICM calculator. To me those are nearly worthless whereas eastbays is very valuable.

[/ QUOTE ]

But is that for any reason other than it being much, much faster? That's obviously a good reason, but I've already acknowledged that, and if you do the calculations very rarely - which I was getting the impression would probably be the case for Che - then it doesn't really matter much.

maddog2030

06-10-2005, 11:55 AM

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which are....?

[/ QUOTE ]

A simple one that I can think of off the top of my head is the percentage of the times you are called with various opponents behind you to act with various calling ranges of their own.

Moonsugar

06-10-2005, 12:00 PM

Pokertracker: Yes, invaluable.

Gametime, Playerview: I use in ring games but not in SnG. Problem with using in SnG is players tightness and aggression level change throughout a tourney.

PokerProphecy: I don't know if valuable or not since I don't own it. I have checked myself in it and it seems to overstate my wins and collect less than 1/2 of my games.

I would add 2:

Pokerstove: Great for quck CEV calculations.

Eastbay's Sit-n-Go analyzer: Great for analyzing your HU and bubble play with all in $ equity prices. I use it to review tournies but also to work out strategies ahead of time. It is not a perfect 'bot' and has some weaknesses but it is well worth the money.

Good luck.

eastbay

06-10-2005, 12:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I usually stay out of these threads, but that's just not correct. There are several probability calculations going into this that neither pokerstove nor the ICM webpage can do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you clarify, then?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course anybody can do anything by hand, including compute PI to a million decimal places.

Five handed, players 2,3,4,5 have ranges A,B,C,D. What's the probability that players D calls given that he will only call if A,B,C fold?

Sure, you can do it by hand, especially if your time is worthless.

eastbay

gumpzilla

06-10-2005, 12:15 PM

Sure, that level of detail would be a monstrous pain to do by hand, and I wouldn't do that. However, calculations with that degree of specificity seem to be far less practical than some straightforward ones that you can do pretty easily, in terms of making approximations to what you're likely to see in a game, which is the whole point of the endeavor anyway.

I'm not trying to suggest that your program is useless or isn't good. I've never used it, but the consensus seems to be that it's an awesome piece of software and well worth the investment for most SNG players.

eastbay

06-10-2005, 12:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

eastbays program is about a million times more useful than pokerstove+the ICM calculator. To me those are nearly worthless whereas eastbays is very valuable.

[/ QUOTE ]

But is that for any reason other than it being much, much faster? That's obviously a good reason, but I've already acknowledged that, and if you do the calculations very rarely - which I was getting the impression would probably be the case for Che - then it doesn't really matter much.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's not a matter of "saving time" so much as it is a matter of doing things you just flat-out would never do otherwise.

Who in their right mind is going to do a 4-way analysis by hand, much less 5-way or 6-way or more? Much less work out the result for all possible holdings for each of those? Much less the result for all your possible holdings at each of levels 3, 4, 5? Nobody, but you can do all of that in 10 seconds with the program, and experienced high-limit winning players like curtains (in addition to myself and others) seem to think these are valuable results to have.

So I think to claim that this is just saving a little time here and there is just not correct. It's opening up a quantitative map that you just would not have at all otherwise.

eastbay

Slim Pickens

06-10-2005, 12:20 PM

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Why is the spreadsheet thing better than Pokertracker? I don't understand, what does it do that PT doesnt?

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty graphs (I copied Hood's styling), easier day/time-of-day splits, bankroll tracking, results retrieve faster since there's no database of hands to parse, anyone familiar with Excel can make custom modifications.

My opinion is Hood's Tracker=AM spreadsheet so people should use which ever suits them best. The next version of the spreadsheet, which will be the last one I work on, has some nice extra bankroll tracking stuff.

Slim

eastbay

06-10-2005, 12:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Sure, that level of detail would be a monstrous pain to do by hand, and I wouldn't do that. However, calculations with that degree of specificity seem to be far less practical than some straightforward ones that you can do pretty easily, in terms of making approximations to what you're likely to see in a game, which is the whole point of the endeavor anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the point is not that the calculations are so specific, but that this is a dynamic game with a lot of variables, and beyond seeing what the results are for any set of assumptions, the real key to honing your instincts is to learn what the sensitivities are to each of those variables. This only comes by varying the variables and seeing how the results change. Doing this by hand is not only crazy from a time value perspective, but it just can't possibly give you the feedback you can get by seeing those results in "real time" as you move the variables around.

eastbay

gumpzilla

06-10-2005, 12:27 PM

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Who in their right mind is going to do a 4-way analysis by hand, much less 5-way or 6-way or more? Much less work out the result for all possible holdings for each of those? Much less the result for all your possible holdings at each of levels 3, 4, 5? Nobody, but you can do all of that in 10 seconds with the program, and experienced high-limit winning players like curtains (in addition to myself and others) seem to think these are valuable results to have.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. I was unaware of the extent of your program's capabilities.

ewing55

06-10-2005, 01:02 PM

1) PokerTracker - If you are going to 15 table, pokertracker could be a pain, but I don't so I don't know. I usually 1 -3 table. When I bust out I MINIMIZE the table and open up another one. I'll check back later and close it when that tourney is over. That way I rarely have to import a summary. It is all automatic *if* you let the tourney go to the end and don't close the table early.

It is also very valuable to say run a filter on the play from the last 5 days and see what hands I have lost the most money on. Hum... I'm losing a ton on AJo. Lets replay all 10 of those hands. Wow...I thought that was a good play, obviously I'm probably wrong. Next time I get dealt AJo I'm going to play (or not) with a much greater awareness. (I've been losing a lot with small PP in early position with the set or fold mentality. I don't know the answer to that one. Just fold?)

2) PlayerView - I only use it for showing my opponents hole cards. (Only after the hand is over.) If I win a showdown, it's nice to automatically see what my opponent was holding. PlayerView has caused me some problems. It's not a perfect product.

3)PokerProphecy - I use it to look up the ITM on every player at all of my tables. I then add a note to each player that has a 40% ITM over at least 100 games. It give me a little info about that player. I know I can steal from him a little bit more reliably and I respect his raises a little more. Also, when I open a table I wait until there are just a couple seats left or I'll grab a seat just to the right of a player that has a note. (I never take notes on poor players.)

I hate the spamming they do, but I have found that, even though they only record about 2/3 of my games, the stats are pretty close to matching the stats I have on PokerTracker.

-----------------Jeff

hummusx

06-10-2005, 01:27 PM

Just wanted to add a quick note. I have purchased PT and PlayerView, but have just started looking at PokerOffice. It seems to kind of be PT and PV combined into one, except that it also provides some nice things on the table like real time Pot Odds, Outs, etc. If I were buying right now, I would almost certainly look into PokerOffice instead.