Joy of violent movement pulls you under

[bobbyi]

One of my college friends was in a 3/6 game, so I decided I'd play a while. He wasn't involved in this hand though.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, UTG folds, CO calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10.33 SB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB caps</font>, CO folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (10.16 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (12.16 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14.16 BB

[toss]

I'm not too sure about the coldcall PF. I'd either raise it or fold it. FLop and turn is all good. River is kinda meh.

[eric5148]

No way I'm coldcalling preflop. If CO is a LAG, I 3bet, if not I fold.

I'd be very surprised if you weren't drawing to two outs here.

[Stack]

I like it all. He may just have A /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
If CO is a LAG, I 3bet, if not I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
Folding here is not good. If you call, you are probably going to play four or five handed for two bets with you having pocket eights and the button. This is clearly profitable. So there is no way folding is better than calling.

[Petteri]

I do not like cold-calling pre-flop. If you want to play you should raise.

Fold flop to 2 bets. After action preflop, it is pretty likely you are behind.

Even if you are still ahead, opponents have strong draws and your draws are dirty. You have 1 out to nuts(straight flush), 2 outs to set, 3 outs to straight and 9 outs to flush. But even if you make set, straight or flush you still often lose.

[private joker]

River seems like an easy fold to me. The only reasonable hand you're beating is A/images/graemlins/spade.gifK, and opponent would have to be more aggro than your average 3/6er to have it here.

[ckessel]

I don't get the preflop CC. Yea, you're in the button, but not enough callers really for the implied odds. Seems like a raise/fold situation.

I think I fold the flop. You're over pair clearly isn't the best hand and facing 2 bets I'm not sure your straight draw is worth much. Your flush draw is probably worthless.

Say 1 spade out, 2 trip outs, and effectively 3 straight out, but the trip and straight outs are victims of redraws, so call it 4 outs total. At 10-2, I just don't see the odds to chase.

[crunchy1]

I don't understand why so many are against the PF cold-call. I think a lot of people are being influenced by knowing that the BB 3-bet PF. I think cold-calling with two random hands left to act here is not as bad as it's being made out to be.

Typically a large factor of a late-position 3-bet with a hand like this is to buy the button. COs range can be pretty large here and we are guaranteed to have position. I think there are a lot of flops that we can take advantage of by keeping CO in the lead. Having him there gives us a good chance of being able to protect our hand on many flops that don't neccessarily need to hit us that hard.

[damaniac]

I think people are more influenced by SSHE and the idea that you should basically never cold-call. It's good advice both for beginners and for experts to recall. But at the same time, there are going to be more times to cold-call profitably than just AQs, KQs, AJs. As you improve your poker ability, you begin to recognize situations where you can deviate from the "normal" play to earn a bit more.

It's sort of like the not folding on the end for a bet in a big pot idea. It's good advice for everyone, but applies more to beginners, some of whom may be apt to make "big laydowns". As you get better, you can find spots where your hand is never going to be good, or almost never, no matter how big the pot, and thus you can fold. It's darn good advice to strongly consider calling in large pots with marginal hands, but at the same time we need to consider our hand reading and other skills to make the best play. People can be a bit dogmatic sometimes is all I'm saying.

[SeaEagle]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why so many are against the PF cold-call.

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. I see this "3-betting medium pairs into several-way pots" advice all the time here. Maybe I'm just not a good player, but paying 3-bets to get 88 into a 3-way pot is not on my list of plays I'm wanting to make.

[ckessel]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why so many are against the PF cold-call.

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. I see this "3-betting medium pairs into several-way pots" advice all the time here. Maybe I'm just not a good player, but paying 3-bets to get 88 into a 3-way pot is not on my list of plays I'm wanting to make.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think your 88 is ahead, you want to 3 bet and get the money in now. It's also useful to take a free card on the flop when people check to you on a board you don't like.

If you think you're behind to a larger pair, you want to get in cheaply and with only 2 known callers that's very questionable.

SSH does recommend cold calling with small-mid pairs...if you've got at least 3 people I think it was already in the pot. You don't have any guarantee of that here so your implied odds are really really thing.

[SeaEagle]

[ QUOTE ]
If you think your 88 is ahead, you want to 3 bet and get the money in now.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why? I think 22 is ahead here too. Would you 3-bet 22?

In a multiway hand, the value of your 88 is entirely flop (and action) dependent. Why wouldn't you try to see the flop and the action in front of you before deciding to commit more chips? Especially with the PF raiser conveniently to your right, and you conveniently on the button?

[ QUOTE ]
SSH does recommend cold calling with small-mid pairs...if you've got at least 3 people I think it was already in the pot. You don't have any guarantee of that here so your implied odds are really really thing.

[/ QUOTE ]
SSH doesn't recommend 3-betting it either...

[bobbyi]

FWIW, looking at pokertracker I have 27k hands of full ring lhe (about half 3/6 and half 5/10) and out of those, I have cold called preflop 47 times. 40 of those are with pocket pairs. So it's not like this is a play I make frequently at all. But it has its place.

[bobbyi]

The other problem with three-betting is that it reopens the action for the initial raiser and allows him to cap it if he has a big hand. I really don't want to pay four bets to see the flop.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
There is no way folding is better than calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
I think people are more influenced by SSHE and the idea that you should basically never cold-call. It's good advice both for beginners and for experts to recall. But at the same time, there are going to be more times to cold-call profitably than just AQs, KQs, AJs. As you improve your poker ability, you begin to recognize situations where you can deviate from the "normal" play to earn a bit more.

It's sort of like the not folding on the end for a bet in a big pot idea. It's good advice for everyone, but applies more to beginners, some of whom may be apt to make "big laydowns". As you get better, you can find spots where your hand is never going to be good, or almost never, no matter how big the pot, and thus you can fold. It's darn good advice to strongly consider calling in large pots with marginal hands, but at the same time we need to consider our hand reading and other skills to make the best play. People can be a bit dogmatic sometimes is all I'm saying.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great post is all I'm saying.

[bobbyi]

The reason I posted this hand is because I think the flop decision is interesting. I was disappointed that so many people focussed on the preflop decision, especially since no one made a particularly convincing case for raising or folding being better than calling here (and having thought it over, I'm sure that calling is the best play).

Anyway, can someone give me their analysis of the flop situation, especially those who advocate folding? I never really got a clear explanation of why folding wold be optimal here. As I see it:
If someone has flopped a made flush, I am obviously [censored]. But I really have no reason to believe that is the case yet. BB is auto-betting after capping preflop and CO's raise could easily be an overpair, the naked A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, or whatever. It seems that I am drawing to six outs here (all remaining eights and sixes) here very often. Occasionally, I am drawing near dead, but I think that is more than offset by the cases where I either currently have the best hand or have the only spade (e.g., BB has Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ/images/graemlins/club.gif and CO has T/images/graemlins/heart.gifT/images/graemlins/diamond.gif). It looks to me like I have enough outs to want to see another card here. If so, I think that reraising is better than calling, but I guess I don't need to try to analyze why since no one advocating calling on the flop (although I am curious how much I would have gotten flamed for posting a hand where I cold-called two consecutive streets here). Can those who fold the flop explain where the fault is in this thinking? Thanks.

[bakku]

There is no way I'm folding PF, I'd rank your options (best to worst): call, 3-bet, fold.

Folding the flop is again the worst of your 3 options. I like how you played it. The river is awfully close to a fold.