Age Question......

[ZManODS]

Im curious, how old was everyone when they first started playing hold em? How long did it take to be GOOD. Thank you.

[Ed Miller]

I was 22 when I first started playing... I'm 23 now.. hehe. And I'm still working on the good part. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[JoeyT]

I was 19 when I started.. and am 20 now. I didn't really start playing until after I had read and reread hpfap, and top. I'm obviously still on the very beginning end of the learning stage, but in the past 6 months I've been beating all the LL stuff both online and on my one trip to a b&m with a pretty good consistency.

I don't think it takes a very long time at all (maybe 3 months) to be able to beat typical loose/passive low limit games. I'm sure I'd get manhandled if I entered a tough game.. but I don't have the money to be doing that anyway, so its all good. /forums/images/icons/cool.gif

[J_V]

I started 4 years ago (18 yrs. old) playing .50-1 on an 80 dollar bankroll in college homegames. I managed to win and build up until I could play 2-4. From there I went to 1-5 to 4-8 to 5-10 to 10-20. Now I play 50-100 when I play 15-30 online (almost exclusively now). I have built over a 100,000 dollar bankroll in four years.

However, I learned under ideal conditions. Lots of time. No expenses. I was very studious, I was instructed on where and how to get better right away. I have some talent, and most importantly I was lucky to have friends who talked poker and learned with me. They were about my skill level but just as ambitious as me. In fact, they felt out the water for me. You don't realize how much you can make until you stick your neck out. When you're a low limit player, you think all the 20-40 players must be great to risk that kind of money. But you'll never know that 9/10 are lousy until you get a 1000 together and play. Another thing is, I am not a true, pure gambler. I am really willing to "see" if I can win at a certain level. If not for my roommate I might still be playing 1-5 stud or somehing. My roommate tested out the high limit water and took the hard knocks for me so I didn't have to. I learned from his errors and successes. I never had to go into a game without full knowledge of what I was getting into and if I could beat it. In fact, lucky for me, my friend is still doing that for me. He's willing to play huge PLO, while I'm not yet. That's the next step for me, glad he's doing it first.

I recommend finding someone who is learning or will learn with you that will expedite your winning and learning process immensely.

[Ulysses]

JV,

That's impressive and sounds like a very solid path. One question, could you clarify this statement please?

Now I play 50-100 when I play 15-30 online (almost exclusively now).

[J_V]

When I play live, I play 50-100 HOSE. However, I don't play live much anymore, because there is so much more to be made online. I play 15-30 online, usually three shorthanded games.

The internet is the ideal way to build a bankroll when you don't have a big bankroll starting out. I've seen $50 turned into 20K in less than 6 months. If you are good and have lots of time, you don't need a major investment to really develop a sizeable roll.

[Ulysses]

Hmmm... Maybe I'll have to give online a try.

I'm 30 and started playing a year ago after doing a bunch of stuff in and around the tech and venture capital industries. I had been going to Vegas a lot and playing craps and blackjack and decided to pick up poker when the other games started to get a little boring. Had never played any serious poker - just your typical home games w/ games ranging from 5-card draw to crazy games like guts, etc.

As for my "learning progression"

First 3 months: played 3-6 after reading WLLHE and Abdul's Pre-flop and Suckout essays. I was a little better than break even then.

Second 3 months: Found 2+2 and read the postings here and started to win more and play 6-12 as well.

Third 3 months: Played 6-12 mainly and won consistently.

Last 3 months: Finally read HPFAP and started playing 15-30 and 20-40 (about half the time, 6-12 the other half) and have been able to win consistently there.

Haven't played any online, just B&M at AJs and Lucky Chances in the Bay Area and Mirage and Bellagio.

I'm now at an interesting place. At the current limits, I'm playing out of my "entertainment budget." If I had a separate poker bankroll for 20-40, I could go bust and it wouldn't make any difference to me. Assuming I felt I could win, I'd just give myself another bankroll. Somewhere around 50-100 is where I start to get to levels where I would notice the amount I lost if I lost my "bankroll." At some point I guess I'll make the decision as to whether poker will remain just a profitable hobby for me or if I actually want to get a little more serious and dedicate amounts of money to this pursuit that actually matter to me.

So, did you stay in college? I definitely think that someone who has the ability to do what you did w/ poker will find a lot of opportunities in the business world to make far more money (and the freedom that goes along with that) in ways far easier than poker. You might find many of them much more intellectually stimulating with almost as much freedom and control as a poker life, while some might be like drudgery to you. On the other hand, if poker is what you really love and want to do for a living, hey, more power to you!

[Ed Miller]

I find this an interesting thread... so I'll contribute a little more about my biography...

I'm 23, and for the last two years I have been a software developer at a large software company based in Redmond, WA. I spent college underage, in debt, and in Boston, though, so I didn't get much gambling experience then. About a year ago, I picked up a copy of Holdem Poker and read it. I thought it was interesting, so I put a couple hundred bucks on UltimateBet and proceeded to lose it at the 2-4 game. Then I picked up HPFAP and several other books, read them, started reading this forum, and played some more. I made back what I had lost plus a couple of hundred extra bucks. Then in January, work started consuming most of my time, so I cashed out and went on hiatus for about six months. In July, I picked up poker again and started driving down (35 miles /forums/images/icons/frown.gif ) to the card room to play the 4-8 game on a regular basis. I returned to this forum and have been an active (maybe too active.. hehe) participant for the last six months.

My results in 2002 were very discouraging for me. I lost about $1000 in the 4-8 game, playing a total of about 300 hours so far. I find the results even more frustrating, because, at most every table, I feel like I am the best player and am constantly seeing the mistakes that my opponents are making... and it seems like they are making so many that I couldn't possibly not be making money. The thing that keeps me at it is that I know I am intelligent, and I know that I have been learning rapidly for the last six months. I have everything that I need to be successful at poker, and I will be successful. If I end 2003 in the red, I will be shocked.

Having said that, I'm strongly considering moving to Las Vegas. I enjoy living in Seattle like I enjoy a nice punch in the gut... and my job is completely uninteresting to me. I always enjoy life more when I'm in Las Vegas, so I figure that I don't really have any good reason not to move. Next step is to find a job... hehe... so if anyone in Las Vegas knows someone who wants to hire an intelligent software developer or a high school physics, chemistry, or calculus teacher... drop me a line.. hehe.

I hope to hear more about the stories of other posters here... /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi Ulysses,
Can you tell me how a 30 year old gets into Venture Capital?

And then makes enough money to not worry about losing a
2-40 bank roll, estimated at 40*300 bets = 12,000 as the 2+2 reccomended amount? So it takes a 30K loss for you to feel it's out of line (the 50-100 bank roll).

I'll admit, there's been times in my life when that amount didn't matter. Have a Trans Am sitting in warehouse in Vegas that was vandalized while I was living out there. The money that was invested in that car (bought it cash, back before the days of corp. downsizing, had some bucks then) didn't bother me. The damage to my toy did.

Still 12K is a nice piece of change.

But the big question is, how'd you get into Venture Capital so young? I have to suspect that you started as a 20-something.

I'm 40, been in Fortune 500's most of my life... have a tech degree... and I'd still not lose 12K "like it was nothing". Personally, I'm pissed at Wall Street an the rise of "Management by Share Price"... unless of course I could get on the side of the fence that benefits from it. And I don't mean "small investor"! LOL!


I lived in LV for 2 years. Took up poker somewhere in that time, spent 6 months of it playing only poker... was only breakeven... so how'd you get so profitable so quickly? I had many, many books from over there at Gambler's Book Club. A large percentage were 2+2 books.

Last Question:... What are these "far easier and more profitable" avenues of which you speak? How political is entry into that world? Or does it require the old Ivy League MBA?

Just curious, as I agree with you... more $$$ equals more freedom in the long run.

Sincerely,
AA

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi MajorKong,
At 8725 West Sahara CitiCorp has a Bank Card processing center. They arrogantly like to call it "Command Center Nevada".

Don't know how much pure development goes on there, but it might be worth looking into. The Relo package was about 15K when I went out there. And got to keep what I didn't spend. (Like around 10K of it).

But you have to stay out of the Operations Group... they are a bunch of Type X morons in that group. And not being a Banking MBA you'll get second class treatment since computing and it's personnel are a resource to be exploited by the Managing MBA's.

You'll find that IT folks outside of IT companies aren't the "big deal".... You won't be core business... so you won't get the respect or the pay like you were.

Anyway, "Command Center Nevada" is one of three sites used by Citi, the others at Souix Falls and Weehawken N.J. They all back each other up with clones of everything for 24/7 capability.

However, just to give you an idea.... Once the Visa posting jobs ABENDed for all of Citi's Visa accounts. I printed out the failure... and was reprimanded for not being "paperless"... then the same manager handed out a football pool.... on *paper*.

So the most important code in the company fails... and it can't be printed, but a damned football pool can.

This is a real life story.

But what the heck, turnover at that site is high, and you just want to fund a poker career... so go for it.

Sincerely,
AA

P.S. Don't say I sent you! My last words to them were "Kiss my @ss". Literally.

[Ulysses]

OK, here's my life story. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

I went to a good college, not an Ivy, and got an engineering degree. Joined a systems consulting firm and did that for a couple of years. Made about $50k/year, but was billed out for about $250k/year, which didn't seem like a good deal. So, I convinced a couple of friends that we could pitch ourselves at almost half the rate, and take home almost triple the pay. And that's how I started a little consulting firm. Did that for a couple of years, then decided that software was a higher-leverage business with better margins, so I took everything I had and boot-strapped a software company. Started making a little money doing that, then raised some venture capital - did it the old fashioned way, cold-calling and knocking on investor's doors with very few connections. Made some money w/ that company when it was sold and had developed a good reputation with many investors. Thought I might want to be a fulltime VC, so I started to do a variety of work with their funds and their portfolio companies. Decided that wasn't the right thing for me yet (I still need more instant gratification and direct involvement in what I'm doing!) and have spent the last couple of years taking a lot of time off and basically waiting to figure out what I want to focus on next.

So, how did I get to where I am? A combination of skills, intelligence, hard work, and luck. I'm very good at what I do and willing to take a lot of risk. I've already twice taken all the money I had and committed it to something I thought was a great opportunity. Luckily for me, both of those worked out. Perhaps if I came from a wealthy family or had the connections that come from an Ivy MBA I could have gotten to the same point with less risk or work, but whatever, I'm here. Doesn't bother me how anyone else gets here or who has more. I'm fine, but I also have lots of friends who have tens and a few who have hundreds of millions. Had two billionaire friends for a short while, but they "only" have a couple hundred mil now. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif More power to them all.

Based on my time playing poker recreationally, I think many professional avenues are much easier ways to make money than poker. Most white collar fields have a clear path to a six-figure salary, the time to get there dependent on ability and ambition. I believe that's a much harder goal at poker.

As for my poker progression, it seems like a number of people here have similar stories, many progressing faster and higher than me. Frankly, I think the books helped very little compared to my time reading and posting here and of course, live play. I also believe many of the problem-solving and other skills I've had to use and develop in the business world also happen to be assets at the poker table.

Best of luck to you

[D.J.]

Started playing serious when I was 19, with the help of a good friend who happened to be a dealer, it took me about 6 months to where I would consider myself good. Now, I'm at that point to where I know I can beat most mid-limit games but am anxious to move up and that's what's killing me. I know I'm good enough to play at the big tables w/ the big boys but I can't separate myself from the money when I play real high. I can afford to take high risk moves b/c I'm still very young w/ little responsibilities, so if I go broke it sucks, but I don't have any kids to feed or anything hopefully by the time I'm 25 I'll be consistently be playing 80-160 to 200-400, but we'll see.

-D.J.

[J_V]

Wow, you are on a fast learning track. If I remember correctly, I was still playing A-rag, about 9 months after I started. I doubt I was beating 3-6 then. I was a little hard-headed in my learning in that, I needed to be fully convinced of something before I accepted it. I remember laughing at the authors that suggested K-Jo should be folded UTG. One thing that helped is that I learned all the games, holdem being the third.

I just graduated college in December. I have been looking for a way to get out of poker. Poker started off extremely enjoyable for me, but after it became a very serious venture for me, I started to play the game more for the money and not for fun. For a college kid, I liked the money and I needed to keep playing to maintain my lifestyle. Poker had me tied in. One of my problems is that I can't shrug off losses. No matter how much I am up if I lose 4K+ in a night, it's hard for me not to put it into real dollar terms....a gazillion mcdonalds value meals. Maybe its because I didnt have a lot of cash a few years ago. If I lose big for night, it lingers with me and affects my life outside of poker.

I am going to play full time online for the next six months do a little traveling and chill down at school. In the summer, I am going to start a commercial real estate partnership. It's a field I am not that familiar with but I will be surrounded by people who are. I wanted to become a trader when I started college, but after playing poker, I feel it would be hard to go back to the 9-5 lifestyle. I think that once I am not playing all the time and I can focus on big bet poker, I live, breathe, and eat poker like i used too. I recommend keep shooting up the limits till you feel outmatched, and try out online poker - you might like it.

[J_V]

Another thing about poker advancement.....their is a severe plateau in skill level, which turns me off, when you try to look at poker as a pure game. Also, I would like to strive to become very, very wealthy (or at least try to), which seems to be tough unless you are top ten in the world in poker.

[TexasEmil]

I was introduce to hold'em when I was only 16 years old, but it was not on a serious level. Altough I learned how the game worked. I had played poker with my friends ever since I was like 13-14 years old or something, but not for much. When I was 17 years old we got a home game going with like 10-15 people. Still not so much money, but more seriously and I started to do researches to improve my skills. I have always being a good at math, can control my face and pretty good reading people. In the last year some of my friends started to play on the internet and I also started to play last autumn. I lost like $150 when I realized my play wasn't solid and I decided to order a book after read many post how that increased their game. I actually not thougt I could improve my play much more, but damn I was wrong. I read low limit hold'em by Lee Jones and I realized many things I always thought about but didn't use. I had the knowledge for the game and I started off making money on the internet. Today three months later I have started playing for a living. I have improved my poker with atleast 150% and seldom lose at all anymore. I'm still getting better all the time, but I have proved I'm good now. I have faced some pretty good players and I can stand up against them, I have done it many times. I make enough money on the internet and I have also started to play at a club on near my city and I'm invited to come play at another club. I think it's going to be fun see what all this are going to end.

[mike l.]

"Somewhere around 50-100 is where I start to get to levels where I would notice the amount I lost if I lost my "bankroll."

it's also where 15-30 and 20-40 start to look real easy while 60-120, 80-160 and up start too look mighty tough. it's a big leap i think, but i could be wrong.

i found my skills were not enough and my leaks too big when i got up to 40. looking forward to giving it a shot again, and higher, later this year.

[andyfox]

I started playing about 2 years after the game was legalized in California. It's taken me all this time to become OK. I hope to be good some day.

[J_V]

Ahhh, the humble twoplustwo posters.....

I'd never plaeyd with you, but someone that beats 30-60 ranks higher than "ok" in my book.

[Ulysses]

It's funny, JV. After reading your story I wondered to myself whether I ever would have gotten into the tech business had I tried poker while I was in college. I also had no money (was in debt w/ loans actually) until a couple of years after school. I remember how crushing losing $200 at blackjack was. Hard to imagine losing a few thou in a night at that age!

If you put the same effort into real estate as you did into poker to build a $100k bankroll from nothing in 4 years, I'm sure you'll do great. And I suspect it'll make poker as a side activity fun for you once again. Good luck!

[Ulysses]

Mike,

Just reading posts from you, Snakehead, and other high-limit players here was enough for me to realize the vast difference in terms of types of plays and levels of aggression that are needed to win at the levels above 20-40. If I was confident I could beat the higher levels right now, I'd be sitting at the 100-200 or higher right now. But as nice as you and other 2+2 posters seem to be, I'd rather give that 60k to charity than to you guys. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

I've taken some shots at higher limits (a couple of times at Lucky Chances, and a few times in Vegas) and I'm actually up a little, but the difference in caliber of player is obvious.

[Ulysses]

Andy,

Now that you've given us something to calibrate our skill levels by, I can say that if I can get to "OK" within the next couple of years, I'll be very happy w/ my poker progress. /forums/images/icons/cool.gif

[Webster]

Not sure about the "good" thing. I was 46 (49 now). Put $150 into a pokerroom on the net. Lost it. Bought books, software and obsessed for a year. Put $50 in and have never looked back. That was only 3 years ago and I'm approaching 5 figures in winnings in low stakes on the net (3-6 tops).

I STILL do not know if it's luck or skill but I'm having fun as long as I don't worry about winning.

[Peter]

I started playing holdem in March of last year. In the first months I lost a total of about $1000 playing 1-2 and 2-4 online. Then in the summerholiday I read Holdem Poker and from then on I started winning. Since then I have won the 1000 back and an additional 1200.
When Paradise introduced the new games I tried to learn 5-card draw. Lost almost 500, but won it all back and stopped playing when I was even.
The only time I played in a B&M room was when I went to the only casino in the Netherlands that deals poker to play a holdem tourney. Unfortunately, when I got there I found out that they didn't have a holdem tourney but an omaha pot-limit tourney. I decided to play anyway and had a lot of luck finishing 5th. It was worth to make the trip, I found it much more fun than playing on-line. Next summer I hope to make a trip to Vegas for a couple of weeks and play a lot of B&M poker that fits in my bankroll.

Peter

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi Ulysses,
I have to applaud your moxy. No doubt about that. Never personally met a young, wealthy person that didn't have family connections. But then I spent most of my life in the Palm Beaches. A center of old money.

Still don't know how folks bill themselves out as software consultants though... maybe "contractors" but not consultants. I work in an IBM Level 2 job and still wouldn't try to bill myself out as a "expert" in the softwary I support! Heck, not even any given Developer knows all the ins and outs of any particular product.

So, I'd be real curious to know how you managed to get the business and feel like you knew enough to be a "consultant" vrs. "contractor".

Guess I should define those two terms:

Consultant: Like a Mckinsey & Company consultant... Sr. Management goes to them and asks "What should we do".

Contractor: Often is says "consultant" on thier business cards... but it really goes, "Send us seven guys who know COBOL (C++, whatever)... and we'll tell 'em what to do when they get here." I.e. they are essentially like carpenters in the world of Building Contractors.... a commodity.

And just for the record, there's *not* a clear path to 6 figures in this business. After being in it for 20 years I still don't make six figures... though some of my counterparts in San Jose do. The usual BS being, "well west coast cost of living is higher".

Hence my interest in how folks are getting to the higher income levels, 'cause god knows I've paid the "dues". I've come to believe that I've been screwed out of the "membership" (in the six figure club that is).

Sincerely,
Frank

[Vehn]

Guess I'll go too. In late 2001 my best friend found out about the newly legalized card room here in Minnesota. He went a couple times and told me about it, and I went with him once. I had never played poker before in any form but at least knew the general rules and card rankings. I remember asking him what to play, and he said "any ace, any king, any 2 sooted, any 2 connected, any 2 big cards". I get into a $2/$4 game and fold my post - dealer didn't even say anything, bastard. I did get quads later on that night /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif.

I of course got killed for the first month or so, dropping something ridiculous like $1000 at $2/$4. Eventually the B&C became aware of this and put a limit of $150/month as my poker budget. I picked up some books and started reading this forum. I took my $150 for the month and bought into Paradise for $50 and lost it all at $.50/$1. I bought in again for $50 and lost it. I bought in a 3rd time and never did again, and only took my "allowance" twice. I slowly started having success and building up some money online, and figuring out what works and what doesn't and making my way to PP $2/$4. Eventually I was successful enough online that I could cash money from there so I could successfully lose at the B&M /forums/images/icons/wink.gif. We bought a bengal kitten (http://www.geocities.com/keriscat/index.html) with Paradise winnings and named him "Little Slick" /forums/images/icons/smile.gif.

In the spring of last year I scraped up $300 and played the "high limit" of $6/$12 at Canterbury for the 2nd or 3rd time for me. I won. I won the next time I went too, and the time after that. I eventually wound up winning about 13 straight sessions and suddenly found myself with something resembling a bankroll. In late summer I had a drunken online tiltastrophy-disaster and lost a big chunk of my online roll, which probably wasn't big enough anyways. After some reflection I decided to throw in the towel and cashed out of Paradise permanently, and started going twice a week to play live. I continued to have success at Canterbury and started playing $8/$16 in the fall. At this moment I'm sitting here at work typing this up with $1260 in my pocket looking forward to taking my first shot at the $15/$30 here tonight. Or go out to a strip club with some friends. Think I'll leave the money at home though if I do that..

[Ulysses]

I of course got killed for the first month or so, dropping something ridiculous like $1000 at $2/$4.

Boy, that sounds familiar. I managed to drop just over $1000 in my first month of 3-6.

OK, on to the advice...

At this moment I'm sitting here at work typing this up with $1260 in my pocket looking forward to taking my first shot at the $15/$30 here tonight. Or go out to a strip club with some friends. Think I'll leave the money at home though if I do that..

Speaking from experience, $1260 cash + 15-30 shot + 15-30 win + celebratory drinks + trip to strip club w/ friends = potential disaster. Or a great night, depending on your perspective. /forums/images/icons/cool.gif

[J_V]

5 figures at low limits? You guys are too cautious. I think its safe to say you are beating online low limit poker right now.

[Fitz]

Reading all the posts about how everyone got started, I feel like an old man here... lol. I'm 37, and I've been playing poker since I was about 12. I played a lot of stud in semi-serious home games over the years, and I moved to the casinos when the riverboats opened here in '94.

In those days, I played only stud usually 1-5 or 2-10, and I did okay; I wasn't serious enough to actively track my results, and most of what I did win ended up at the crap table. I was also a little imtimidated by hold 'em, so I never bothered to learn the game. Finally, one of the floors at Station Casino convinced me to sit in a 3/6 game while I waited for my stud seat. About 10 minutes into the game, I caught AKc and the flop came 3 clubs. I knew enough to know I had the nuts if the board didn't pair, and I got two callers all the way to the river(Both of them had club flushes too)! Needless to say, I was hooked.

I spent most of the next year playing 3/6 and breaking even or losing a little bit, but it was fun, and I really looked at it as entertainment. I have always loved playing cards; I'm the guy everybody always calls when they have to have one more player; I'm always ready for a card game.

In the spring of 2001, I started playing at Paradise. Like many, I lost a few hundred dollars along the way, but I kept at .5/1. About that time, two important things happened. A fellow B&M player turned me onto 2+2, and I very unexpectedly, had a disc rupture in my back. I spent 3 months in the hospital, and a few more months at home not doing much. It was at this time I began to read HPFAP and Lee Jones' "Winning Low Limit Hold 'em". I really studied these two books, and the game began to really make sense.

Because I'm still not getting around very well due to my back injuries, and my bosses are the best people in the world(I'm a techie in the credit card world.) I've spent the last 18 months working from home. I haven't been to a B&M casino since my back surgery, but I am planning and "Ali like return to the ring." soon... lol. I have played lots of poker online, and this, and following this forum has helped make me a winning player.

I began keeping detailed records last spring, and over 9 months of playing low limits mostly 2/4, but up to 3/6, I averaged just over 1 BB an hour for over 1200 hours. At this point, I consider myself a winning player.

When I do go back to B&M poker, I want to move up in limits, but I am a little wary. I have been told the 2/4 and 3/6 games at Paradise are analogous to 15/30 in a casino. I guess it's a mental block, but I just remember sitting at the 3/6 games and being awed by the 15/30 players(usually the biggest game our casino spread). What are the comparisons? How good are most 15/30 players? What kind of trickery should I expect?

Sorry to be so long winded; good luck all.

[LuckyDaNuts]

in regards to a clear path to 6 figures my suggestion would be to stay away from large companies early on in your career so you see more upward movement faster and build confidence. I graduated colled in '97 and worked various jobs until November of '99. I trained myself in computer networking and got a job offer for 40K. Now it's 2003 and in just four years I've raised my salary to 120K. I did that by simply asking. Going to my employer, showing them what I do and have done for them and asking them for a raise in return for my hardwork. You'd be suprised how often they'll say yes.

As far as poker I started playing seriously about one year ago but have been a gambler since I was about 12. Poker home games mostly until a few years ago when I started frequenting card rooms when I lived in South Florida. Moved back home to Connecticut and realized they had built two major casinoes in my area. Yay. Anyway I would say I'm an overall loser for year 1. Though I believe my knowledge is growing immensely. I graduated from a top 20 University, have math related background and consider myself observant. I have read about five different books on the subject and have just recently found this forum. I look forward to reading the posts.

I haven't seen this major turnaround in winnings and i'm concerned. I have read and absorbed all the books, have thousands of hours of online play and live play (2-4 up to 20-40, no limit, pot limit, limit) everything. I'm hoping to see it soon or I may have to come to the sad realization that poker is not for me.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I've been a gambler since I can remember. My father introduced me to the race track at 13, and that was my prime form of gambling until my late thirties. I've played poker on and off for over 30 years, but just discovered casino poker 3 years ago (I'm 51 now). Interesting enough, I started with Omaha8 and after some initial success, started getting killed. After reading abit more, I realized Hold 'em fit my personality better. I took the leap to online poker in mid-September of '02. Since then I've been playing mainly 2/4 (80%) or 1/2 (20%) on Paradise, and between 2/4 and 5/10 live (Foxwoods, Mohegan, The Taj, The Mirage & Bellagio. Sounds like a lot live, but it has only been once at each location. I'm about $400 ahead since last Sept. Not good if you're earning a living, but not bad for the learning process.

I'm not good yet, but I'm better than I was 4 months ago, and I learn more (and read hands better) every time I play.

I'm moving 60 miles down the road in 2 weeks(Boston 'burb to Providence 'burb), so I'll be only 45 minutes from EW & Mohegan as opposed to 2 hours, so I anticipate more time live. My goal is to be a 10/20 player live by mid-year, and hopefully bump up my online bankroll enough to play at least 5/10 regularly by the end of the year.

[Piers]

Started on planet, and then paradise when it opened a couple of mounths later. Whats good?

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi Lucky,
Nothing personal, but you're a perfect example of what has me pissed of a corp. USA. (Not *you* personally but the situation per se.)

I'm a fricken IBM Level 2 analyst. The guy you'd call when you "can't figure it out". And I make a f*cken fraction of what you do. I have a Bachelor's in Comp. Sci. an 18-20 years of mainframe background... starting as a god d*mned 7.50 an hour printer operator.

I can program in Assembler and half a dozen other languages...

"Trained yourself in Networking"... doing what... filling in fields in pull down menus or can you program at some TCP or IP level or SNA?

See why I'm pissed. I f*cken 40, degreed and experienced... where the f*ck is my 6 figures. And dammit. I needed it when I was your age and the m*ther f*cking rich kids from Palm Beach and Jupiter Island were trashing every god d*mned girl I ever cared about.

This world is completely f*cked.

Nothing personal. But apparently those of us born around '62 were too young to get all the goodies the boomers about 10 years my senior got...Like Sr. Mgmt positions before the '87 crash and to young to have gotten the goodies the X-ers got like 6 figure jobs for poking icons.

So I'm quite unapolgetically pissed, because on my back everyone else got the frippen good times, while I busted my *ass more and got less.

For example... Explain the IBM 390 Archetecture to me...


Anyway, nothing personal to you, because you didn't make the rules. You just hit it right. You got a shot at the new stuff prior to the Y2K run up in salaries.

So here I am at 40 and you're a 20 something... we both walk into a bar and who's girl walk out with? Younger, better looking *richer* you!!!

Lucky for you, you'll likely never have to feel that way.

Sincerely,
AA

[marbles]

Played my first hand just over a year ago. Currently a mediocre 28-year-old player hoping to be a good player at 30.

[Tyler Durden]

I started playing Hold 'Em in the summer of 2001. Drove to the Taj on a Wednesday to take out my frustrations of being a month removed from graduating college and being unable to find a job. Lost about $1500 playing blackjack. My car broke down while I was in AC. And my parents didn't know where I was! So, I'm broke and have no way of getting home. I had to call my parents and tell them what I'd done. We arranged for my car to be towed back to DC. Anyway...

While I was waiting on Thursday night I decided to give Hold 'Em a try. I'd seen Rounders a few weeks earlier and I wanted to give it a shot. I played 2-4 and 3-6 at the Taj. Then someone said if I really wanted to learn, 5-10 was the place to be. Those guys were good! I even played 10-20 for about an hour. Even though I had no business being there...

I started playing on Paradise in September and lost about 500 playing 3-6 and 2-4. Then I decided to really start learning, mostly by reading WLLHE and HEPFAP and reading 2+2. I started doing well at the low-limit online games and eventually I moved up to 6-12 where I am doing quite well. After 7 months of Hold Em I am quite happy with my progression and hope to continue playing mostly the 5-10 at the Taj and the pink game at the Trop. I plan on playing those for all of 2003 and if I like where I am at the end of 2003, I'll contemplate moving up to the Taj 10-20.

I'm currently 22 years old.

[Ed Miller]

I didn't realize how many of us are late teens early 20s around here. Sometimes I feel like I'm misspending my youth, sitting in the poker room so much... but it's good to know that other people are likewise misspending their youth.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Don't worry. I'm here to bump up the average age. I just misspent my youth betting horses.

Age is irrelevant. To quote Satchel Paige "How old would you be if you didn't know how old you were?"

[tewall]

With tech there's a lot of luck to the timing. Technologies come and go as far as being in and out of demand. If you have a lot of experience in a field where there's not a lot of demand, then you get hurt. In my experience (I'm in a similar situation as you, over 40, lots of experience) having a lot of experience doesn't matter very much. What matters is having specific experience in whatever the given technology is.

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi Tewall,
I agree, As someone who caught the tailend of the Mainframe boom, and the Unix/TCP/IP/C++ thing hadn't been invented yet, when I graduated, I got painted into a corner.

Ticks me off because it's like telling a Jet mechanic they can't work on a piston engine. Rediculous.

Besides, in the Jet Pilot field, the darn stick and rudder have been in the same place for almost 100 years now!

So I'd never tell a kid get into IT. I'd say finish the education in something where you are you're own CEO... I.e independant professional.. M.D. Lawyer, etc.

The one exception, Ivy League MBA. Get into a position to say what kind of labor the company will buy and sell. Get above the class divide.

Sincerely,
AA

[Homer]

I started playing last January at the age of 22. Initially, I played 2/4 7CS on Paradise Poker, and lost close to $1000 in three months. I then wised up and bought Roy West's 7CS book. I played for a while and managed to become a close to break-even player. I then decided to give hold'em a try. I bought Lee Jones' book and HPFAP. I started playing in Party Poker's 2/4 game in August and have won about $3500 in that game and the 3/6 game since that time. I recently have started to play 5/10 on Party and I like the prospects. I have also taken a renewed interest in 7CS and have taken up 7CS8. I play both of these games on Paradise Poker. I would say that I am an above average hold'em player, good but not great. I am a break-even 7CS player and a mediocre 7CS8 player.

-- Homer

[KSU78]

I have to agree with Ulysses. You're on a collision course with failure. With $1260, your bankroll is barely big enough to play $3-$6 if you consider a bankroll of 200 units. For myself, I prefer a "blackjack" bankroll of 400 units but I will consider a game if I have at least 200 units for that level. For the $15-30 game, you have 42 units total.

I play at Canterbury and I know that you are in a real predicament. The $3-6 game is a little wild and loose there which causes some severe fluctuations. The $6-12 game there is probably the best game in the house. It is fairly steady and predictable. But so is the $4-8 game there.

A couple of months ago, a dealer there said that there wasn't much difference in skill level across the board. I know that to be a fact. Canterbury was pretty soft when it opened. But it has been almost three years since it opened. You can find several tables with dealers on the clock. They play with their own money and they're tougher than your average Minnesota yokal. You will also find some former dealers that now just play at the higher stakes. They are true professionals who are very skilled and knowledgable of the game.

I hate to suggest to you to consider the $3-6 game. You do have a 100-unit bankroll at the $6-12 level and a 150-unit bankroll at $4-8.

[KSU78]

I started playing 10 years ago maybe once every three or four years. It was nothing serious until I got a job in Las Vegas 3 years ago. I played every day while I was in Las Vegas. My rationale was I was learning in the best place I could learn. And after a year in Las Vegas, I felt that I left there as a winner. But I never felt that I was consistently a winner.

I try to gauge my development by comparing where I was at in different stages in my career. Today, I win regularly and consistently. If I were to play the person I was two years ago, I would have hardly any trouble taking down the pots. For two years, my lessons were position and starting hand selection. Today, my lesson is mastering table domination. I strive to be the best and to get a little better each time I play. And I never forget the phrase: "The will to win is nothing without the will to prepare."

I am not yet an expert with regards to Mason's definition of an expert, ie $30/hr at $15-30. My bankroll is not sufficient to play at that level. But when it is, I will certainly meet that criterion. I have no doubt.

I am almost 50 years old.

[Vehn]

Hi. The $1260 was a session roll. I have a substantially larger bankroll that I play $8/$16 out of - almost 300 bets as a matter of fact, that I built from scratch from the before-mentioned win at $6/$12 last spring. The $1260 was merely what I was bringing to the card room for a one-time shot at $15/$30 - my total bankroll is clearly not currently sufficient for me to play $15/$30 full-time. Sorry I didn't make myself clear, welcome to 2+2 forums.

Epilogue: I wound up going out with friends Friday night instead of to the card room. I played Sunday but didn't get on the $15 list until late in the session and wasn't called before I left.

p.s. As I never answered the original question, I'm 26.

[LuckyDaNuts]

I love that you imply that i'd go to you if I didn't know an answer to a question. That's hilarious. I don't work with mainframes. I'm sure you'd come to me if you had a q uestion about Setting up Layer 3 load balancing on a Cisco 11000 CSS. We are in different fields. I also have a wide variety of skills which have placed me in a position at my company where I can make valuable business decisions for our IT department. You on the other hand seem rather chaotic and volatile where i'm sure most employers have been hesitant to promote you to any higher positions because of this. I know plenty of computer geeks who are still making less than 50 grand because that's all they know how to do. I remember posting in a much earlier post that I felt you were one of the more intelligent people i've run into on the net based on some comments and suggestions you had posted. I'm beginning to think that was a mistake. Simply implying that i'm a point and click computer guru, you've made a mistake. When I say I trained myself in computers it was after 10 years of being an avid computer geek. I just decided to train myself to get certified in Microsoft\Cisco\and Compaq. Please don't be jealous, you seem smart enough and confident enough to go out and get the job you've wanted. Just make sure that in you 18-20 years experience as a mainframe programmer that you kept your skills honeed and realized that your expertise was becoming more and more underpaid and useless and decided to learn new and better paying skills. If you didn't, then i'd have to say you made the wrong choices.

[Andy B]

I am of the mind that all one needs to play $15/30 is about $1000 and a job. Sounds like vehn_ has both. You can always peel $100 or $200 off of your next paycheck and play low-limit again.

As for the skilled former dealers, I think you're talking about something like three guys. I don't really want to discuss individuals in a public forum, but I think that only one of them is truly solid, and he's really only strong in hold'em. I don't think that much of anybody is making a good living playing at Canterbury Park.

As for the original question, Canterbury Park opened when I was 32. I had played a little hold'em before that, but not enough to make any difference. I have quit playing hold'em about ten times. I'm coming up on 35, and I hold my own, and not just in the men's room.

[RollaJ]

Does AA stand for Alcoholics Anonymous?... I think you may need some help, that was some real serial killer talk right there /forums/images/icons/ooo.gif

[tewall]

I think I.T. is a good place to be if you have the mind set for it. Certainly one would expect things to return to how they were before (not like the late 90's, which was crazy, but like earlier in the 90's where I.T. was solid and growing steadily).

I agree with your comment about the jet mechanic and piston engine. Most companies are very short-sighted when it comes to hiring programmers. A good programmer will be a good programmer regardless of the language. The language is trivial. Companies should instead focus on what makes for a good programmer and try to find those types of people.

In most of the screenings I've done the companies have not asked the right questions.

[MCS]

Started at 22. Now 23. I'm not good. I am currently doing better than breaking even at .50-1 online though, so I'm competent enough to play low-limit for fun. Poker is about the sixth priority in my day, and I don't play very much.

[Ikke]

I started playing when I was about 17. I'm now 22 and played for about 3 years online. I started out in the microlimits with a $150 buy-in, and never bought in ever after.

I love the game and put much time and effort in improving my game. And as a student I have plenty of time :-)
At the moment I'm regularly playing 10/20 5 max and are doing well. I make a good living for a otherwise poor student.

Regards

[JTG51]

I was 25 when I played hold'em (or any kind of poker for that matter) for the first time.

It's a year later now, and I still wouldn't call myself good.

[DeezNuts]

Even I am starting to feel like I started old. Started playing about 1.5 years ago. I always played poker instead of blackjack when I went to Vegas, and was always intrigued by the game. Was out in Gardena and decided to check out Normandie after a job interview. I recently had been laid off from a fledgling internet start-up, so I had very, very little in terms of bankroll. I played 3-6 hold 'em and lost $150, which hurt quite a bit since I had no income(and a girlfriend, ouch). I would play any 2 cards but so passively that when I made a hand and bet, everyone would fold.

After that, I read books(a common theme in this thread) and tackled $.50-$1.00 Paradise and the casinos again. Within 4 months I was beating the $4-$8 B&M games, but still playing a little too loose to beat any higher than $2-4 PP. I also started my new job in finance at a Hollywood studio after 4 months of unemployment during this time.

Then, at the 5 month mark, the heavens opened up and I hit a bad beat jackpot. I flopped quad 7s on a Q77 board vs. QQ and a beautiful queen came on the river. With that $6k win, I had a real bankroll. Yes, I know I got lucky. But I spent a bit of the money immediately on a TV, clothes, computer, etc. and I had been beating the low limit games for about 1.5BB/hr anyways. After that, I kept moving up, trying to stay at each level until I knew I was beating the game consistently before moving up(3 months each playing 3-6, 4-8, 6-12, and 9-18).

I finally settled into my current state, which is consistently beating the Los Angeles yellow chip games, about one year ago. I have even played some online 15-30/20-40 and have been beating these games, but I think there is more profit to be had in the B&M LA games, plus, the live games are just more enjoyable to me(although JV's numbers might make me take another look at online games).

Hopefully, I will regularly be playing the 40-80 or higher soon, but if not, no big deal. I have a job that provides me a steady paycheck and the yellow chip games give me enough variance and income as it is. Plus, my home casino does not regularly spread 40-80. Not to mention that I am always wary of collusion or cheating at any level above 30-60. I don't think I need the stress, although the challenge(and the money) are enticing.

DN

[Plzr]

/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif started playing HE at 22 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif am 47 now /forums/images/icons/heart.gif /forums/images/icons/grin.gif /forums/images/icons/club.gif

[SoBeDude]

I'd appreciate any pointers you could give on online play. I'm struggling to make money online where I do fairly well in 10-20 live games.

I struggle to break even at 3-6 online and just started to scratch out a meager profit at 1-2 and 2-4. my online play has just reached positive cash flow in the last week, and then not a lot.

Overall I'm down about $800 playing online.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

-Scott

[SoBeDude]

However, just to give you an idea.... Once the Visa posting jobs ABENDed for all of Citi's Visa accounts. I printed out the failure... and was reprimanded for not being "paperless"... then the same manager handed out a football pool.... on *paper*.

ABENDs...god that brings me back. Batch processing on an IBM mainframe. How very 70's of them.

I had to worry about those when I was working my way through college...way back in the mid 80's.

If you're working in Redmond (might I guess Microsoft - the axis of evil?), you'd hate working in cobol and RPG on mainframes.

find something else

-Scott

[SoBeDude]

Your point about when you were born has more to do with it than you may think.

I too have the BS in CS. throughout my career (which I gave up before bubble burst) I looked down on the mainframe types such as you.

you're using 60's and 70's technology. Even the SNA you mention (but couldn't spell architecture)was simply an attempt to breath new uses in to old mainframes.

you're programming in languages so out date, you're a commodity. no offense, but you've a dime-a-dozen skill set. they do NOT demand a strong salary, never did and never will.

now back to my point about your age. Had you started just a few years later, and had skills that are in demand then you'd see the big bucks too.

I always demanded a high salary because I had skills that were in short supply. Then I developed a reputation as the guy who gets things done and moved in to management - and the six-figure salary.

Now my skills were NOT what I learned in college. They are what I developed to handle certain needs my customers had. I mostly taught myself.

So shame on you for sticking with dinosaurs, not keeping your pulse on the up-and-coming technologies, and not getting the skills that demand the bucks. and double-shame on you for blaming others who made out better.

Now if its any consolation to you, I quit my job, opened up jet ski rentals on South Beach, and promptly went broke when 9/11 happened.

But I have no regrets and have only respect for those that have done better and made more money than I.

-With respect

Scott

[SoBeDude]

-----------------------------------------------------------
I agree with your comment about the jet mechanic and piston engine. Most companies are very short-sighted when it comes to hiring programmers. A good programmer will be a good programmer regardless of the language. The language is trivial.
__________________________________________________ _________

unfortunately that is not true any longer. back in the day of cobol, fortran, basic, rpg, and c you could agrue that point.

But today's languages are very complex to use productively, and the learning curve is huge.

I made that mistake with Powerbuilder. I hired a guy I knew who was very talented in many languages. It took him well over a year to really be productive, and I had to spend a fortune sending him to a 2-week class to give him a hand.

In lost productivity actual costs, and missed opportunities I could have hired two high-priced powerbuilder "experts" and been money ahead.

Which is exactly what I did the next time.

-Scott

[pufferfish]

you're using 60's and 70's technology.

(Think B.S.)

Even the SNA you mention (but couldn't spell architecture)was simply an attempt to breath new uses in to old mainframes.

(Think denial of service attacks.)

you're programming in languages so out date, you're a commodity. no offense, but you've a dime-a-dozen skill set. they do NOT demand a strong salary, never did and never will.

I not sure about IBM Level 2 support today, but it used to be that these were the folks that read the "dumps" and provided solutions to problems in a system or it's components (read Operating System) that they supported.

The operating system and it's components are were/are written in PLS? (read assembler language).

This is a lot different that being a COBOL or RPG programmer.

[mojolang]

Started when I was 18, now I'm 19. I think I'm pretty decent. I obviously am growing all the time but for only a year and a half play, I'm pretty confident. I think at times I don't have the balls or lack the discipline to go with what I should do, but it is quite seldom now. I've played only as high as 4/8 as I don't have $ to go higher. JV is obviously very lucky or has picked perfect games to build up a bankoll that quick. I'm not saying he isn't talented but he obviously stubled upon something good whether that be luck or a damn easy game. After reading Malmuth's GTAOTs, I realized how brutal standard deviation can be. I remember in one session, I dropped 200 in a 3/6 game in one 40 minute period when I got pocket kings snapped twice, queens three times and aces once all snapped at the river. I was ready to go home and puke I was feeling so dejected but now I think that losing is much easier to handle. Now, after playing for longer, and reading GTAOTs, I realize that everyone is going to take some knocks, and as long as your play is opimal, there is nothing to do but get back in there.

Joe

[gonores]

I started around X-mas 2002 after a series of knee surgeries took kept me incognito for a semester and I spent my weekends reading stolen copies of HEP and HEPFAP instead of getting drunk. I decided to learn in November and early December on Turbo THE and finally started playing online for real money over winter break. My $80 buy-in was sufficient, and I am up about $1500 in my first month playing $1-2 and $2-4 (taking lumps on Turbo is way easier than in real life).

I am 21.

[The Claw]

My turn. I started playing in a serious home game two years ago. We play weekly with casino rules: 2-4 with kill; only Texas and Omaha/8. Two of the players (including me) really read and study; another three have read most of the books, but aren't quite as obsessed; one is just a "natural"; and we have a couple maniacs who like to join us. I had been beating that game by about 1.25 BB per hour (4 hours/week times about 40 weeks/year), but lately I've been doing a little worse. Not sure if it's me or a change in the table, or just a long run of bad cards.

I only play free money online, and can't help winning, but I know that's not realistic. I can also pretty easily beat the "average" lineups on TTH.

I play Vegas two or three times a year, mostly 3-6 at Mirage, and have beaten that game (barely) (i.e. less than 1/2 BB per hour).

I'm now 40 and a lawyer. I suppose I could afford much higher stakes than 2-4 or 3-6, but I'm not playing for money, I'm just playing to win. If I really wanted to make money, I'd leave the poker table and bill one of my clients another hour or so.

[SlyR]

All the "young 'uns" indeed.

I was used to feeling relatively inexperienced until I read everyone else's answers. Now I don't feel so young as a 30 year old who's been playing seriously for about five years.

[ninthyaga]

Started at 19. Now 23. I'm no good /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

[issasalim]

I am 43 yrs old,I started playing 7stud 8 months ago,then started holdem(2-4 low level) 2 months ago,where i go to Atlantic city almost twice a week(Taj Mahal),most of the people are old(late fourties and fifties& older)which I keep in mind during the session, taking into consideration their long experience at the game,but this factor does not bother as much as the computer and on-line players,who spends more than 10 hrs a day playing on-line poker which i do my-self,and this point does not scares me as much as the mathmatics and engineering-minded players,who calculates his chances of winning or loosing in each street.I have my master degree in engineering,I used to be the best student in my school,college&university specially in mathmatics&statistics which the game all about.Before playing my first in 7-stud,I spent almost 6days of refreshing my statistics and studying the vriuos combinations of the 2,3,4,5,6&7 cards.Everytime I go playing ,I hardly lose a hand in the first 5 hrs then end up loosing all the money at the same table(Because I don't have the experience) which is very serious problem I am working very hard to solve it,so aging and mathmatical oriented people is hard to beat,if you don't have the basics of mathmatics&statistics don't ever get close to poker it takes years&years before you know where you are.

[issasalim]

Thanks mate for having the same situation as mine,my job is getting boring now,I am an engineer 43 years old,I started poker 8 months ago after 6 days of revising my statistics and calculus,I go to atlantic city once or twice aweek to play 2-4holdem or 1-5 stud,where I make a good winning in the first 5hrs then lose them after that,I travel 150 miles from baltimore and I am thinking seriously of moving to atlantic city so I can play 5-6hrs a day only where i do my best,I spent alot of hours in studying poker statistics and playing on-line for fun I hope I can play for 5hrs aday only where i can be at my best.

[Jim Easton]

or a high school physics, chemistry, or calculus teacher...

As far as I know, Clark County is having a difficult time filling all of the positions they have for teachers. This is one of the fastest growing school districts in the country - they can't build the schools fast enough. Not sure about the pay, though.

[amtannn]

How much money do the top professionals make? (say top 100 players) I am currently attending a top law school and will be employed next year by a prestigious law firm making 125k per year. I love playing poker, but even if I was amazing at poker could I realistically make more than the salary I'll be getting at a top law firm. How many pro's make more than this on a consistent basis? Please respond because I'd like nothing more than to try my luck playing poker for a living.

[Ed Miller]

I'm certainly not a top player, but I believe the top players can easily make $100K a year. Most pros probably make much less than that, though.

[amtannn]

So unless I was amazing I should just get my degree and work 8-8 for a living.

[Ed Miller]

Obviously, it depends on your priorities. I currently have an $80K/year job... but I really don't enjoy the job (or Seattle) at all. I have no family... so I am considering quitting my job and moving (maybe to Vegas), taking a possibly lower paying job (like maybe high school teacher) and then playing poker for some extra spending cash. My life priorities aren't (and have never been) to maximize my earn... I'm much more interested, at least at this point, in trying to build a life that I actually enjoy.

If you have a family to support... or if you have financial obligations that require you to maintain a certain income... then it's probably not a good idea to drop everything and become a poker player.

[jbum]

I am currently 15 years old now and have been playing for 6 months with a group of guys in their 20's. I have quickly come around to hold my own after reading many books and studying many posts on here. I hope im out for a decent career.