River Donkbet Boy [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

QTip

06-09-2005, 11:33 PM

The river bettor is the same player in these hands. This guy was betting every other river OOP with or w/o a hand. Hand 1 here is an example. Do you think I took fact too far in hand 2? Would you call the 3 bet?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG raises, 3 folds, Hero 3-bets, 4 folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls.

River: (9.25 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.25 BB

Results in white below: 
BB has As Kd (high card, ace).
UTG has Th Ts (one pair, tens).
Hero has Qd Ad (one pair, queens).
Outcome: Hero wins 12.25 BB. 

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP1 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 4 folds, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

River: (8.25 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
UTG bets, MP1 folds, Hero raises, MP1 reraises

Jake (The Snake)

06-09-2005, 11:36 PM

I'd be more inclined to raise hand 1 than hand 2. The river doesn't really complete any draws and you have a guy calling in the middle who you almost certainly have beat.

crunchy1

06-09-2005, 11:41 PM

How many hands do you have on this guy? Do you realize that these aren't just river donkbets but, the c/c, c/c, bet line? Wouldn't we sometimes play TT like that in Hand #1 - to make sure a bet goes in on every street? Have you considered that maybe he's got some read on you?

Sorry for all the questions... I think we need more information here.

CashFlo

06-09-2005, 11:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
River: (8.25 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
UTG bets, MP1 folds, Hero raises, MP1 reraises

[/ QUOTE ]

im guessing you mean that UTG 3-bets

QTip

06-09-2005, 11:51 PM

The questions asked thus far...

Yes, in hand 2 that should be UTG 3 bets...my bad.

Hand 1 was much better for a river raise yes; however, this was one of the first times I noticed it. Several times later I found myself in hand 2.

I've no stats on him (I've not used stats for the last 15K..bad I know). This is the only thing I've noticed so far..about 6 donkbets on the river when he had busted draws. In hand 1 he had A high...not TT, that was UTG.

Really, I think I overplayed it since it was the K /images/graemlins/heart.gif falling. Any other rag on the river, I think the river raise has merit. Just wanted to get some thoughts though.

CashFlo

06-09-2005, 11:57 PM

yeaaa i dont like the raise in hand 2 for several reasons:

1. it was an overcard
2. it complete the flush
3. i find that when theres a paired board on the flop and a fish calls u down on every street, and shows aggression in the later streets they often have the trips.

TheRedDragon

06-09-2005, 11:57 PM

I don't think you're getting value on this raise, even against this guy. 2 jacks are on board, an overcard hit the river and a flush just came in. I'm not seeing any evidence that this guy's preflop play is out of line, so this board is pretty scary.

You're just not beating enough hands here for the raise to be profitable, and you don't have any evidence that the guy calls after you raise his donkbet (do you?). When you get 3-bet, it's pretty close, but I'd lean towards calling. If he's bluffing the river as in the first hand, maybe just maybe he's stepping way out of line and 3-betting 1 time in 14 times. I'm not at all sure on that point though, and it highlights the crappiness of that river raise.

crunchy1

06-10-2005, 12:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
In hand 1 he had A high...not TT, that was UTG.

[/ QUOTE ]
My mistake.

[ QUOTE ]
Really, I think I overplayed it since it was the K /images/graemlins/heart.gif falling. Any other rag on the river, I think the river raise has merit.

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed.

Had you given any thought to his line as a whole rather than just viewing his play as river donkbets? I mean - where do players learn the c/c, c/c, bet line from?? Could he be a 2+2 lurker? Could he know that you're a 2+2er and be trying to donk on you?

Or do you just think he's an idiot?

brettbrettr

06-10-2005, 12:01 AM

I hate the raise in hand 2. If you successfully value bet the river here, you'd be very happy. Value call, be happy.

Nick C

06-10-2005, 12:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The questions asked thus far...

Yes, in hand 2 that should be UTG 3 bets...my bad.

Hand 1 was much better for a river raise yes; however, this was one of the first times I noticed it. Several times later I found myself in hand 2.

I've no stats on him (I've not used stats for the last 15K..bad I know). This is the only thing I've noticed so far..about 6 donkbets on the river when he had busted draws. In hand 1 he had A high...not TT, that was UTG.

Really, I think I overplayed it since it was the K /images/graemlins/heart.gif falling. Any other rag on the river, I think the river raise has merit. Just wanted to get some thoughts though.

[/ QUOTE ]

In hand 2, if he's betting the river with a busted flush draw, will he actually call with it?

I'd be more inclined to raise if I thought he had a worse hand that he wanted to show down.

I will say though (and this probably applies more to 3/6 than 2/4), that I am starting to think I should raise (both with marginal hands and as a bluff) more often than I do when faced with the check-call, check-call, bet line. I think sometimes my opponent is betting the river for the reasons we do when we use that line: He has a hand with showdown value, but he's worried I'll give up and check behind with ace-high. That doesn't mean he loves his hand, though, and I see enough bet-folding going on at 3/6 (sometimes against me when I have a very good hand and do raise) that I'm thinking that maybe I should start raising these sudden river bets more often.

QTip

06-10-2005, 12:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
he's an idiot?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the one right there...the problem was that I followed suit. Reminds me of SmileyEH's Pooh Bah post.

molawn2mo

06-10-2005, 12:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP1 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 4 folds, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

River: (8.25 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
UTG bets, MP1 folds, Hero raises, MP1 reraises

[/ QUOTE ]

looks like one of those steam raises or ill-concieved bluff-raises. bad bad. what better hand folds or what lesser hand calls your raise?

i hate myself after i do that.

so don't do that!

just call the river.

crunchy1

06-10-2005, 12:06 AM

<sarcasm>
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
he's an idiot?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the one right there...the problem was that I followed suit. Reminds me of SmileyEH.

[/ QUOTE ]</sarcasm>

FYP /images/graemlins/grin.gif

QTip

06-10-2005, 12:08 AM

I'm really trying to work on my river play. I think it's the worse of all the streets for me. And...things tend to get worse before they get better.

I hated what I did here, but I like to post when I do that for a couple reasons:

1. Other people learn

2. It burns it in my mind when I get flamed

QTip

06-10-2005, 12:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
<sarcasm>
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
he's an idiot?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the one right there...the problem was that I followed suit. Reminds me of SmileyEH.

[/ QUOTE ]</sarcasm>

FYP /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL! Nice!

Nick C

06-10-2005, 12:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm really trying to work on my river play. I think it's the worse of all the streets for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is true for me as well.

jskills

06-10-2005, 12:28 AM

I love/hate playing opponents like that. One minute you're crushing them, the next they're sticking it in you sneaky style.

Given the first hand, the river move in the second hand isn't bad. I would still probably just call down, but I have an admitted problem with my lack of river aggression /images/graemlins/frown.gif

UVaHoo

06-10-2005, 12:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm really trying to work on my river play. I think it's the worse of all the streets for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is true for me as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

We should all have a support group. My river aggression is definitely not where I would like it to be. It gets especially bad after downswings, when your mind naturally tells you that you've been sucked out on.

TheRedDragon

06-10-2005, 12:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I will say though (and this probably applies more to 3/6 than 2/4), that I am starting to think I should raise (both with marginal hands and as a bluff) more often than I do when faced with the check-call, check-call, bet line. I think sometimes my opponent is betting the river for the reasons we do when we use that line: He has a hand with showdown value, but he's worried I'll give up and check behind with ace-high. That doesn't mean he loves his hand, though, and I see enough bet-folding going on at 3/6 (sometimes against me when I have a very good hand and do raise) that I'm thinking that maybe I should start raising these sudden river bets more often.

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely applies more to 3/6 than to 2/4 and yeah, raising more on the end is something I've been exploring as well. In the first hand he provided, for example, I think a raise is likely in order. When he wakes up on an overcard that brings in the flush, however, you're usually best just calling down.