Play along with me in this $109 hand [Archive]

The Yugoslavian

06-09-2005, 07:44 PM

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(Note that I posted that folding is ridiculous before Yugo posted taht he wanted to fold)

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Note that I posted I would fold before curtains said it was ridiculously bad.

Note that I also was 100% certain curtains would mention folding here was an outrage at some point...

Yugoslav

curtains

06-09-2005, 07:45 PM

of course, they are both auto raises. I fold weak aces though most of the time...like I'll fold A6o unless I know some tighty is in the BB then I'll be looser.

The Yugoslavian

06-09-2005, 07:47 PM

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your hand is too strong to fold.

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Yeah, according to Phil Hellmuth it's in like the top 8th hand or something.

Ship it!!!!!!!!!!!

Yugoslav

adanthar

06-09-2005, 07:48 PM

So I did what I normally do with small pairs (but not big cards) on the button and open limped. What can I say, I like to let people see free flops on hands I can hit sets with. (I'm open to debate, though.)

The flop came down K /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. The SB checked, and the BB...bet 85 chips into the pot of 45.

What is his range, and do I flat call or raise?

kyro

06-09-2005, 07:48 PM

fold the rest of my clothes and come back to the computer. oooh, 77 on the button. raise to 45-50.

kyro

06-09-2005, 07:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So I did what I normally do with small pairs (but not big cards) on the button and open limped. What can I say, I like to let people see free flops on hands I can hit sets with. (I'm open to debate, though.)

The flop came down K /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. The SB checked, and the BB...bet 85 chips into the pot of 45.

What is his range, and do I flat call or raise?

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FWIW, I don't think limping is terrible. I prefer raising though.

As for the flop. If he's anything like me, he probably has two pair. I could also see him having a draw. I suspect K7 or K6. The fact that he could have a draw though worries me. I probably flat call here and look to bump him on the turn.

Phill S

06-09-2005, 07:51 PM

Posted before the flop was 'dealt':

With KQ or AJ and the like, i raise to limit it down to me and one of the blinds - if no one comes along, no big deal.

With a pair like 77 here, i only limp - i want to see a flop with both of them, and if i hit and they hit i will attempt to put one their stacks in the middle.

The flop:

[ QUOTE ]
So I did what I normally do with small pairs (but not big cards) on the button and open limped. What can I say, I like to let people see free flops on hands I can hit sets with. (I'm open to debate, though.)

The flop came down Ks 7h 6s . The SB checked, and the BB...bet 85 chips into the pot of 45.

What is his range, and do I flat call or raise?

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There was no preflop strength so he could be trying to take the pot, but for it to be so small i think he'd have to be a total donk to do so.

Two pair betting out doesnt make sense either - this big bet feels more like a protection bet more than a milking bet. I also dont see a flush draw betting this much for obvious reasons.

If we were to have defined the hand preflop, we'd be able to narrow it down more, but i range him as Kx, but prolly not KT+ and definately not K7/K6. I also think he is at the weaker end of the scale.

Call, but take 3-5 seconds before doing so - let him think we are drawing, we strike on the turn.

Phill

tigerite

06-09-2005, 07:51 PM

I'd raise. But not a ridiculous amount, enough to keep him interested. More than anything else, just to keep the betting impetus the same, and because if he's bet 85 into a 45 pot, he must be pretty confident about his hand. So let's say re-raise to 150, so it's 75 for him to call.

microbet

06-09-2005, 07:51 PM

I wasted a few seconds thinking about the SB, but he's probably folding no matter what you do.

Raise it up - fairly significantly.

lastchance

06-09-2005, 07:51 PM

So, he overbet... Dammit, that means so many things to so many donkish players.

I'll go ahead and put him on a flush draw, a straight draw, a king, two pair, or a very rare set.

This board has draws. I make it 200.

durron597

06-09-2005, 07:52 PM

Raise. The overbet likely means he is semibluffing. I make it 275 to go.

1C5

06-09-2005, 07:53 PM

Ok, I put him on a KT with 1 or no spades.
Seems to me that he has top pair decent kicker and he overbets the pot to scare away flush draws.

Now what to do. Here I just call the bet and see what his play is next street.

durron597

06-09-2005, 07:53 PM

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so it's 75 for him to call.

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Wtf is the point of this bet. Sweeten the pot so you call anyway when the flush or straight card comes?

Make a real raise so he doesn't have odds to chase.

curtains

06-09-2005, 07:53 PM

I raise to 225, but I don't put any real thought process into it.

durron597

06-09-2005, 07:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I put him on a KT with 1 or no spades.
Seems to me that he has top pair decent kicker and he overbets the pot to scare away flush draws.

Now what to do. Here I just call the bet and see what his play is next street.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you do when the turn is 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif

microbet

06-09-2005, 07:54 PM

nh, yugo.

tigerite

06-09-2005, 07:55 PM

I can't see him being on a draw if he's overbet the pot, with just me and SB in it, the raise is just to stop SB tagging along if he himself is on a draw.

1C5

06-09-2005, 07:59 PM

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[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I put him on a KT with 1 or no spades.
Seems to me that he has top pair decent kicker and he overbets the pot to scare away flush draws.

Now what to do. Here I just call the bet and see what his play is next street.

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What do you do when the turn is 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif

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Depends what he bets. But I am not folding.

The Yugoslavian

06-09-2005, 08:00 PM

On the flop ...I think for a couple seconds and then raise a bit more than whatever the min-raise would be. I'd probably raise by about the amount of the pot...so it'd be to about 215 or so I guess....

Yugoslav

durron597

06-09-2005, 08:01 PM

Say he bets 100.

microbet

06-09-2005, 08:02 PM

Is this just a 2+2 image play or do you really fold?

tigerite

06-09-2005, 08:04 PM

No offence but I think you are playing scared a bit here, the chances of him having exactly two spades considering 3 are in the pot, and that he would have bet out for 2x the pot on the flop, are slim to say the least. I am more worried about extracting value from this hand than worrying what happens if a spade comes on the turn.

durron597

06-09-2005, 08:05 PM

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Is this just a 2+2 image play or do you really fold?

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Nah, a 2+2 image play would be to call allin with the nut low and only backdoor draws. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2486048&page=&view=&sb=5& o=&vc=1)

durron597

06-09-2005, 08:06 PM

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No offence but I think you are playing scared a bit here, the chances of him having exactly two spades considering 3 are in the pot, and that he would have bet out for 2x the pot on the flop, are slim to say the least. I am more worried about extracting value from this hand than worrying what happens if a spade comes on the turn.

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I'm not playing scared, I don't raise that much if the flop is K/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif. The flush draw isn't the only one out there.

adanthar

06-09-2005, 08:07 PM

For those saying to call, keep in mind there is also a 2 straight on the board.

I thought a little bit and raised to 200. He thought for a very long time and called.

The turn was the 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. (BTW, he's a little short so he only has 550 behind to my 700-odd. The pot is 450.) He checks. What is his most likely holding now, and do I try to milk him or push? Extra credit if you say how long I should think before betting.

The Yugoslavian

06-09-2005, 08:11 PM

I'd bet whatever I think he would call or push over thinking he had the best hand with Kx....how about betting t250-t300 but a fishy variant (i.e. 258 or 269 or 293)? I also don't mind thinking for at least a bit of time before doing this...

Yugoslav

RicktheRuler

06-09-2005, 08:13 PM

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I raise it to 45, I will crush them with my sevens

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microbet

06-09-2005, 08:14 PM

That card and his action don't narrow his hand down much. He could have a flush draw and be giving up. He could be slowplaying a straight that hit. He could have a King or two-pair and now think you have him beat.

I don't think checking gets you anywhere good and there's no point in betting less than a push here. Betting half his stack will only make him really certain you have him beat if he has K or 2-pair. Push and hope he has a pair or two and thinks you are semi-bluffing or take the pot away from a flush draw that wouldn't have put more money in the pot without taking it back.

Ok, short answer: Push.

gumpzilla

06-09-2005, 08:17 PM

I think his most likely holdings are things like KJ, A /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, etc. He's definitely got a somewhat reasonable holding, but it's not likely to be that great if he's thinking about it that much. His immediate odds for calling on a pure flush draw weren't so good, but if he thinks the A would be an out and if he thinks he'll get your stack when he hits I could definitely see him calling with the draw here after some thought. On the other hand, I would have expected a smaller initial bet with the draw and a big overbet like that with a K of some sort.

You're obviously ahead of both holdings, but way ahead of the K and somewhat less ahead (but still pretty far ahead) of the draw. I think you go ahead and make a small bet here and try and keep him around. I don't think checking behind will induce a river bet, so the best chance to get more chips is to make a bet that he can call now. A bet of 200 or so makes it reasonably wrong to draw to the flush (spade outs that pair the board are no good) but will probably still get called, not sure how he'd handle a K there. I think he'll fold if you push.

(EDIT: I neglected the possibility of a big combination draw like 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. My initial reaction was that with such a holding he would have turbocalled your flop raise, but he may have been debating whether or not to push with such a holding. The chances that he has a straight, though, are small enough that I think I'd rather take the risk of getting c/r'd here and bet out and win more with other hands.)

durron597

06-09-2005, 08:18 PM

If you bet 225 here, and he c/rs you allin, you are paying 325 to win 1195, and thus this is a call because of the HoH rule. (3.67:1 to call, and you have 10 outs). But that's not really enough to deny him odds to draw to the flush anyway since you almost certainly have to call the river. So I just push I guess.

Edit: by the way you never told us if we have the 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Phill S

06-09-2005, 08:18 PM

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For those saying to call, keep in mind there is also a 2 straight on the board.

I thought a little bit and raised to 200. He thought for a very long time and called.

The turn was the 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. (BTW, he's a little short so he only has 550 behind to my 700-odd. The pot is 450.) He checks. What is his most likely holding now, and do I try to milk him or push? Extra credit if you say how long I should think before betting. 

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I call because i dont worry bout the two draws, if he has em, gl to him, im still fave.

Im also not worried by this turn. Assuming i took this line, i would bet 250 into him, if he wants to play he has committed all his chips effectively, and im not disliking any river here.

250 to try and get him over the top, if not im putting the rest of his stack in the middle on the river.

Phill

microbet

06-09-2005, 08:20 PM

A smaller bet screams big hand. Now, a lot of people can't even hear the screams, but when they have 500 chips and you bet 200, I think they listen a bit more than average.

tigerite

06-09-2005, 08:20 PM

It's close between a raise to 200-225 and a push. I don't know which line I prefer more, but I'm leaning towards the former. Can't say either would be the wrong move though.

lastchance

06-09-2005, 08:21 PM

This guy's right. Hero pushes.

Unarmed

06-09-2005, 08:27 PM

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It's close between a raise to 200-225 and a push. I don't know which line I prefer more, but I'm leaning towards the former. Can't say either would be the wrong move though.

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200 gives correct implied odds to a flush draw. Not good. If Hero's betting anything here, its his whole stack. So check and induce a river bluff if he's LAG or push your stack in if he's LAP. I'll take the latter because I don't like putting myself in a tough river spot where I may fold the best hand.

BTW I play the hand exactly the same way up until this point.

freemoney

06-09-2005, 08:30 PM

haha when reading the thread my though was i make it 225 but i dont really know why.

curtains

06-09-2005, 08:31 PM

It's often hard to avoid giving odds to a hand, while at the same time getting weaker hands to call you. Usually you jsut want to charge them as much as possible if they have a flush draw(although they will often stillbe getting correct odds), and convince them to call you with weaker hands that you have crushed.

Unarmed

06-09-2005, 08:35 PM

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It's often hard to avoid giving odds to a hand, while at the same time getting weaker hands to call you. Usually you jsut want to charge them as much as possible if they have a flush draw(although they will often still be getting correct odds), and convince them to call you with weaker hands that you have crushed.

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Good point, but what sort of weak hand due you believe Villain will call with here? He led out of the BB, (which means he should have a strong hand) and Hero popped him back. He probably puts Hero on top pair with a strong kicker. You're not getting a call from a weak king no matter what you bet, and two pair will call a push here 9 times out 10 anyway. I know what you're getting at, but I don't think it applies here.

adanthar

06-09-2005, 08:41 PM

All right, you guys are overestimating these people a bit /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I thought for about 10 seconds (just before the countdown hit 20) and bet 300. He thought forever and finally checkraised me all in with K8o. 77 held up.

Thoughts on the whole hand?

Unarmed

06-09-2005, 08:43 PM

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Thoughts on the whole hand?

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Yes, I'm moving up to the $109s immediately. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

curtains

06-09-2005, 08:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

It's often hard to avoid giving odds to a hand, while at the same time getting weaker hands to call you. Usually you jsut want to charge them as much as possible if they have a flush draw(although they will often still be getting correct odds), and convince them to call you with weaker hands that you have crushed.

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Good point, but what sort of weak hand due you believe Villain will call with here? He led out of the BB, (which means he should have a strong hand) and Hero popped him back. He probably puts Hero on top pair with a strong kicker. You're not getting a call from a weak king no matter what you bet, and two pair will call a push here 9 times out 10 anyway. I know what you're getting at, but I don't think it applies here.

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Im not getting a call from a weak king no matter what I bet? Is this your first time playing on partypoker?

gumpzilla

06-09-2005, 08:44 PM

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Thoughts on the whole hand?

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Good job selling the villain on a flush draw, I guess.

I think I probably take a pretty similar line, though I'll frequently raise PF, and occasionally against very aggressive opponents smoothcall the flop.

Phill S

06-09-2005, 08:45 PM

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All right, you guys are overestimating these people a bit /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I thought for about 10 seconds (just before the countdown hit 20) and bet 300. He thought forever and finally checkraised me all in with K8o. 77 held up.

Thoughts on the whole hand?

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People in general are idiots? Play to the lowest common denominator? People on 2+2 like pushing far too much?

I think we would have gotton to the same conclusion, but our lines were different. I cant fault your play at any point though.

I think overall your line may have been better than mine, but hindsight is 20/20.

Phill

curtains

06-09-2005, 08:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Thoughts on the whole hand?

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Good job selling the villain on a flush draw, I guess.

I think I probably take a pretty similar line, though I'll frequently raise PF, and occasionally against very aggressive opponents smoothcall the flop.

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Selling the opponent on flush draw? I think our opponent saw that they had a king, and decided that top pair was v good and so he called all bets with the probably thought of "he's bluffing".

microbet

06-09-2005, 08:49 PM

He had 500, so I think betting 300 is essentially pushing. If anything, he will put you on a stronger hand for betting the 300, but it won't make any difference with most opponents.

I generally like your line. The only thing I do different is raise preflop (which would have probably cost me the big pot here), but I pretty much only do that if folded all the way around to me on button or SB, maybe CO.

First time I have ever seen a post like this. Brilliant.

gumpzilla

06-09-2005, 08:50 PM

Sure, but I bet you he would have folded if the turn had come spade instead of blank. I suspect that he did have that thought process, but I would also bet that he thought a flush draw was the most likely hand for Hero. A better K is unlikely to have been limped in, two pair seems freakish, and people rarely think of sets in this context. Thus the c/r on the turn.

Unarmed

06-09-2005, 09:00 PM

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Im not getting a call from a weak king no matter what I bet? Is this your first time playing on partypoker?

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Ok. If that's the case why doesn't Hero just open push? Its not like he's showing an ounce of weakness whether he bets 300 or 550 so what do we gain from getting cute?

The Yugoslavian

06-09-2005, 09:23 PM

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He had 500, so I think betting 300 is essentially pushing. If anything, he will put you on a stronger hand for betting the 300, but it won't make any difference with most opponents.

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I always give my opponents a chance to push into me when I have a big hand...it makes them feel better, /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Yugoslav

freemoney

06-09-2005, 10:58 PM

does this whole forum like to make things as difficult as possible? villian is a shitty player who is just as likely to raise if the spade comes trying to represent the flush, whatever excuse villian wants to make for bad play, sometimes i just think so many of you miss the whole picture.

freemoney

06-10-2005, 02:49 AM

no winning player or any player is taking that line with a flush draw gump im sorry if im not nice and there isnt enough information but many people are so far off that it is like we are reading different hands, this isnt some complex hand its a guy setting against a donk who has top pair i doubt villian thought for a second what hero had, if you dont realize that and its not a matter of selling a flush draw or whatever then you are way behind.