I Hate My Play Here [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

Catt

06-09-2005, 07:03 PM

Villain is 42/15/34 with AF by street of 1/1.1/2.0 over about 80 hands. If anything, his play seems more passive than his AF would indicate -- I have seen him check-check-bet (flop and turn checked through - he was first to act) a HU pot that was raised pre-flop when he flopped a set of 5s. On the other hand, I have seen him raise lead bettor's bet with bottom pair on a K-high flop as 2nd to act in a four-handed unraised pot; and seen him ram and jam with top and bottom pair on the flop. His post-flop play has me befuddled because I've not been able to discern any particular rhyme or reason.

I absolutely hate how I played this hand. I don't expect any responses that can justify my play, but I would appreciate any opinions on the river play as if the action came to you.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
3 folds, Hero raises, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (5 SB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero 3-bets, SB calls.

Does this guy (and guys like him) check-raise the flop without a single /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in his hand?

Turn: (5.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Ugh. Upon review I was sick to my stomach for not betting here. As I think about it more, a bet almost certainly has no or very, very little +EV. If he doesn't have a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif he almost certainly folds; if he does have a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif then he almost certainly calls or raises and I am drawing to 10 outs. My thought process in the hand was frankly: "I'm nearly certain that he has a flush, and I have 10 outs to the boat. Check here and hope to hit the 10-outer." Is a bet appropriate here given that (1) if we're ahead he is almost certainly drawing to at most 4 outs (2-pair) plus 9 outs to a chop (though probably unlikely he sees it this way) and is probably (is this true?) folding to a bet; and (2) if we are behind we are drawing to only 10 outs? My thought process is all over map on this [censored]ing hand.

River: (5.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB bets, Hero ???

Well, the turn check makes this pretty damn uncomfortable. Is it completely retarded to fold top set on this board after the way this was played getting 6.5:1? Is this an auto-call? If the turn went bet-call instead of check-check, what's the play?

As I said - I hate how I played this hand but am struggling getting comfortable with the proper line.

man

06-09-2005, 07:35 PM

this is a pretty ugly situation. but I think your line up to the river is as good as it gets. SB's checkraise on the flop screams flush draw (perhaps straight draw as well, with a pair thrown in there), so your threebet is clearly the best move.

his check on the turn seems to be a setup for a checkraise. a typical player will check here without a diamond, but I think villain bets his non-diamond hands and checks his flushes hoping for a checkraise, since he's oh-so cunning. once you've checked behind you've properly set yourself up for a cheap showdown. I think you're only getting checkraised on this turn, which you can't allow to happen--plus you might as well take the free card for the boat.

the river is an autocall. the last thing you want to do is give yourself the image of a folder, especially since his aggression on the river is 2.0. plus he might have two pair or A6 like 1/20 times to give you something resembling pot odds.

clownshoes

06-09-2005, 07:35 PM

Having not bet the turn I think you need to call this river

adamstewart

06-09-2005, 07:43 PM

call the river, and you've got a perfectly played hand.

Adam

billyjex

06-09-2005, 08:01 PM

You played the hand great -- call the river.

Redeye

06-09-2005, 08:46 PM

I agree with the others that if you called the river, you played the hand fine.

[ QUOTE ]
If he doesn't have a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif he almost certainly folds;

[/ QUOTE ]

However, I don't agree with this. I think a lot of these clowns would call with stuff like Qx of clubs, or A6 clubs or black TT. But, I think the likelyhood of him having a diamond plus you having 10 outs against a flush outweighs the chance he has something you beat that would've called a bet. I think if you would've had black aces, betting the turn and folding to a raise would be good, IMO.

obsidian

06-10-2005, 12:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
However, I don't agree with this. I think a lot of these clowns would call with stuff like Qx of clubs, or A6 clubs or black TT. But, I think the likelyhood of him having a diamond plus you having 10 outs against a flush outweighs the chance he has something you beat that would've called a bet. I think if you would've had black aces, betting the turn and folding to a raise would be good, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not only will they call, they will raise (a hand from tonight):

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
2 folds, Hero raises, BB calls.

Flop: (4 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

River: (7 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB

Results in white below: 
BB has 8d 8c (three of a kind, eights).
Hero has Ah 7s (flush, ace high).
Outcome: Hero wins 11 BB.

afk

06-10-2005, 01:17 AM

I don't think you botched this hand too badly. Since he's been kinda wacko postflop I think 3betting the flop is fine. I don't really have a problem with the turn check. I call the river in your spot.

When you said you're nearly certain he has a flush on the turn then I thin checking behind is the correct play. Even drawing to 10 outs, you don't want to get check-raised.

Catt

06-10-2005, 05:10 AM

I folded the river /images/graemlins/frown.gif. I'm not sure I've folded a set at 6-max before, and damn near certain I haven't for one bet on the river. When I 3-bet the flop I had already convinced myself that he wouldn't C/R the flop without a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. When the Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif fell I convinced myself that I was behind and drawing to 10 outs. When I didn't hit my outs, I folded to his river bet getting 6.5:1 and losing only to the flush or an extremely unlikely 43. I was distracted by a big hand on another table and family stuff going on in the background, and I just concluded that I was beat. That's why I hate my play: I wasn't focused and I put Villain on a hand that beats me without adequately considering the range of hands he could C/R the flop with against a possible steal. FWIW, I think I was probably beat, but I don't think I can be sure that I was a worse than 6.5:1 dog, which means I wasn't focused and made a bad play.

As I thought about the hand more this afternoon (and tried to run some EV calcs) I think I've just about concluded that checking the turn is the right play -- betting just doesn't offer enough considering what I think are reasonable assumptions about Villain's actions if he doesn't hold a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif versus when he does. But I think absent a super read, and only in a smallish pot, folding to the single bet on the river is not correct.

Thanks for the feedback.

spydog

06-10-2005, 05:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
call the river, and you've got a perfectly played hand.

Adam

[/ QUOTE ]