fire again?

[SoBeDude]

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero...</font>

Whats the plan here? bet and check behind on the river? check and call a river bet thats not a K or Q?

-Scott

[DeeJ]

You need to worry about a spade on the river too. I'd fire out on the turn and hope they fold. Failing that I'd be too convinced they had some suited Ace which they weren't folding and I'd check behind on the river. I think you have to call any river bet but there's always the opportunity for a great fold /images/graemlins/smile.gif

If a spade fell I'd call one but not 2 to me, and if it was check-bet-call-raise-call I'd be folding there too, unimproved.

[Robb]

Given the average Party 30/60 lineup, I prefer to bet the turn and check behind on the river.

I would fold to a check-raise on the turn most of the time, absent player info.

[drbk2]

i think against players you don't have a read on, you must bet the turn, check behind on river. I would hate for a bad card (spade or overcard) coming on the river and having to make a tough decision to call the river.

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
i think against players you don't have a read on, you must bet the turn, check behind on river. I would hate for a bad card (spade or overcard) coming on the river and having to make a tough decision to call the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I have an easy river call regardless what card hits on the river after I check.

the question is which play makes more money in the long run?

-Scott

[obi---one]

why are you worried about a k or q on the river? what hand could they have called with that a k or q is of worry. on line, it is definitely more profitable to check and call any river, because you will get bluffed at so much.

[Gamblor]

K /images/graemlins/spade.gif x /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[PairTheBoard]

If you check the Turn and it gets checked to you on the River, any thoughts on betting the River for value?

PairTheBoard

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
If you check the Turn and it gets checked to you on the River, any thoughts on betting the River for value?

PairTheBoard

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I'd bet the river for sure if he checks to me again.

-Scott

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
why are you worried about a k or q on the river? what hand could they have called with that a k or q is of worry. on line, it is definitely more profitable to check and call any river, because you will get bluffed at so much.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought so too, thanks for confirming.

-Scott

[obi---one]

[ QUOTE ]
K /images/graemlins/spade.gif x /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
that hand isnt calling anyways?

[Robb]

[ QUOTE ]
it is definitely more profitable to check and call any river, because you will get bluffed at so much.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it's definitely more profitable to check and call.....I think it's close. Often if you check the turn and the river gets checked to you your opponents fold. Whereas 1 or both may have called a turn bet, with a pair or a flush draw. And if you bet the turn, it's an easy fold to a checkraise most of the time.

However, after thinking about this a while after I posted above that I would bet -- I would only feel confident folding to that turn checkraise if I had some inkling of my opponent(s)' tendencies. So usually in practice I check there and hope to pick off bluff river bets.

But again---- with known players it's a pretty easy turn bet imo.

[Equal]

Obviously there are two lines here: betting the turn and checking the river; or checking the turn and calling the river (barring improvement or action of course for both lines). Which is more +EV?

I think that betting the turn and checking the river is a better line because of two reasons:

1) you get money out of hands that call the turn but won't call a river bet (smaller pairs that are hoping to hit on river or flush draws, or a combination of both).

2) you won't induce very many bluffs/value bets with worse pairs/missed flush draws on the river because the pot is 3-handed. Not many people try to bluff two opponents on the river.

[ResidentParanoid]

With no read, and no info on your recent activity, I think betting the turn is mandatory. If you are raised, I think a fold is in order with no read.

River bet when checked to depends on how many are still standing.

[Robb]

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously there are two lines here: betting the turn and checking the river; or checking the turn and calling the river (barring improvement or action of course for both lines). Which is more +EV?

I think that betting the turn and checking the river is a better line because of two reasons:

1) you get money out of hands that call the turn but won't call a river bet (smaller pairs that are hoping to hit on river or flush draws, or a combination of both).

2) you won't induce very many bluffs/value bets with worse pairs/missed flush draws on the river because the pot is 3-handed. Not many people try to bluff two opponents on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

Also, if I know something of my opponents' game ...I have an inkling of what checking calling an Ace high flop and checking the turn means. Most opponents holding an Ace will (in no particular order):
1) Lead bet the flop
2) Check raise the flop
3) Call the flop and lead the turn
4) Call the flop and checkraise the turn

I think #4 is the least likely for fear of the turn getting checked through. Lends more weight to a turn bet imo.