Facing a constant mini-raiser in level 4 or 5 from the BB

[45suited]

I will preface this by saying that I am very happy with my results. With over 1000 SNGs at the 11s, my ITM is around 44% and my ROI is about 36% and both numbers have been going up steadily. My numbers (with less games) at the 22s are similar.

I have a question and I'd like to know if this is a leak in my game or just solid play. Here's the situation:

Say the game is down to 6 handed. You're in level 4 with a decent stack (say 1000-1600). You notice that the guy two spots to your left is constantly mini-raising to t200. (He might have even started doing this on level 3.) The other players keep calling and getting outplayed after the flop. Just bleeding chips. Well, in levels 3 and 4, you're chip position is healthy, but it's not enough that you really want to get into a pissing contest with mediocre cards. But obviously the mini-raiser has picked up on this and keeps mini-raising your blind.

Currently, I don't really try to get fancy and play back at a guy like this. I wait. I fold and maintain my stack. I allow the other guys to get bled and bide my time. Or eventually someone picks up a hand and plays back at him and he is dumb enough to call (without proper pot odds) with some weak junk. I get into the money with this patient strategy and if I do pick up a hand, I'm not calling the mini-raiser, I'm popping him in the mouth.

My question is: Am I just playing smart or weak? I mean, as much as I know the guy doesn't have a hand every time, if my position is healthy, I'm just not one to play back at the guy for all my chips with a 9Jo or whatever when I can just lay back and be the initial raiser myself.

Maybe this is the difference between the 11s and 22s and you guys who play the 109s and 215s? At my level, I can just wait for the other guy to screw up. At your level, you probably don't have that luxury.

Anyway, that's my question: Is my play smart or is it weak? My results tell me it is smart, but at the table I feel like a wuss sometimes as I allow the mini-raiser to run me over.

[durron597]

Does he always minraise or does he raise more with his better hands?

[45suited]

The guy always mini-raises, almost every hand. Like I said, the problem is that my stack is healthy, so I don't feel like I need to make a play on him, although I'm sure that a large percentage of the time, he will lay it down if I do. I just don't like to take the chance when I'm in good shape and it seems unnecessary. I try to keep my ego out of the decision process. If I was shorter stacked then the decision would be easy, you know?

[dfoote]

I seem to be pathologically unable to resist the reraise push in this situation. I am not recommending it, as it gets me in trouble, but that's what I do.

[adanthar]

Ideally, this would be the time for one of those 'stop and go' things I've heard so much about lately.

Me, I wait for a hand and push...but that may be a leak. There aren't too many of those guys around higher up so I'm not used to them.

[vinyard]

[ QUOTE ]
I will preface this by saying that I am very happy with my results. With over 1000 SNGs at the 11s, my ITM is around 44% and my ROI is about 36% and both numbers have been going up steadily. My numbers (with less games) at the 22s are similar

[/ QUOTE ]

Totally unsolicited but you shoould probably move up to the 22s "full-time."

As for your actual post we can all thank action Dan for this behavior as he mentions its effectiveness in HOH. I will typically wait for somethig playable (Ax, pair, any two face cards) and push back at him and then give him a little table chatter. Or you can call and outplay him on the flop.

[Maulik]

[ QUOTE ]
Ideally, this would be the time for one of those 'stop and go' things I've heard so much about lately.

Me, I wait for a hand and push...but that may be a leak. There aren't too many of those guys around higher up so I'm not used to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

higher up there aren't too many guys jamming the BB or mini-raising the BB?

[citanul]

higher up everyone jams the blinds, no one miniraises.

citanul

[Yawkey]

When you are facing a bully like this, often the best tactic is to become a calling station against them (only against them). As a regular bully myself, I can tell you nothing is more devastating to my stacks than a good player who just keeps calling and never raises. If I'm not careful I will throw a whole lot of chips to try and buy a pot at the wrong time.

[citanul]

the problem with calling and seeing a flop is that often you'll have say, 1200 chips or so or even fewer and the blinds are 50/100 or 100/200. you can't just be calling with many hands and playing postflop. your stack is too short.

in general, i make a fair number of any two pushes against opponents observed to play in this fashion. you can't let yourself lose folding equity against such a player, as the game will effectively be over for you. and while there is some room to wait, etc, there isn't a ton. especially if your opponent is raising many pots, not just the ones that are you and him heads up.

citanul

[fluorescenthippo]

very impressive ROI at the 10s. congrats, you should be proud.
i had half that ROI when i played the 10s

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
the problem with calling and seeing a flop is that often you'll have say, 1200 chips or so or even fewer and the blinds are 50/100 or 100/200. you can't just be calling with many hands and playing postflop. your stack is too short.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. I HATE calling raises at levels 4 and 5. I'm almost always either folding or re-raising.

[ QUOTE ]
in general, i make a fair number of any two pushes against opponents observed to play in this fashion. you can't let yourself lose folding equity against such a player, as the game will effectively be over for you. and while there is some room to wait, etc, there isn't a ton. especially if your opponent is raising many pots, not just the ones that are you and him heads up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, pushing back certainly solves the problem... as long as he doesn't have a hand. Of course when I push back, he backs off at least when I'm in the blind. I just like to have something to back it up in case I'm called. Here is the catch 22 of the situation: the more chips that I have, the more likely a re-raise is to be successful. However, the more chips that I have, the more unnecessary pushing back becomes. (It would be a shame to bust out by going after the other chip leader for example.)

The strange thing is that as much as this mini-raising bs causes these hard decisions, I can't force myself to be that guy. I can't figure out if the mini-raiser is brilliant or stupid. It's not my style but maybe in a weird way there is some merit to this approach...

[citanul]

come on dude, please do realize that what you just wrote in that post amounts to:

when i make a big bet i like to have a big hand, in case i get called, i'd rather win than lose

and

i like to have lots of chips, it makes playing poker easier.

you asked about a situation, i told you how i deal with it. if i'm miniraised often by the same guy, i'll pick a spot, and go with it. if he has a hand and i lose, i lose. that's poker. but if someone is minraising you every time, it's unlikely they have a hand every time, as you know. so, since you don't see his cards, it's equally unlikely he has a hand each time. pick one. i personally make the decision based on a lot of stuff, one of which is current stack depth and ratio to villain's stack at time of hand.

citanul

[45suited]

Don't take me wrong. Of course I know that you're right and I will play back at the guy. All I'm saying is that I don't necessarily do it with any two cards. It wouldn't have to be anything great, maybe even a TJo or something since in the 11s the chances of getting called are probably higher than in the bigger buy ins.

Thanks alot for your responses... I appreciate hearing the thinking of the better players on this forum...

[citanul]

i think that a lot of people have a "problem" that they should clear up. it's possible that you have it too.

so say we're in this situation we're talking about, and we decide that we can't wait for aces, because well, the blinds go up every 3 seconds, so we need to play back. so we decide, some point soon, this douche is going to minraise your blinds, and you're going to push, with a decent amount of folding equity, because we haven't waited too long.

you and i are having a brief disagreement about basically "how good" a hand has to be to be comfortable for you. herein lies the problem, i think. so your play, you're making it because you think it is very likely that, and because you hope that, your opponent will fold. you absolutely don't want the guy to call. now, the misunderstanding i think occurs because of this:

aside from a few hands that are like, JTs and the like (i might be off a bit here, these could not even be outliers), basically any old junk that actually is junk, stands roughly the same chances when you are called by a good hand, or by a bad hand. the hands you really don't want to be getting caught with are the ones like A2 and K2. but yeah, the main point of this post is that well, since you're playing mostly for the value of the % of the time he folds, which you hope to be most of the time, the difference between the value of the cases where you push back with JTs and it's value against the calling hand and the times when you move in with 47s and are called really that much. particularly, i would not think that that difference is worth say, waiting an extra orbit to make your play, since the difference i'm almost sure out of a middling sized stack, is not worth one set of blinds+the steal raise that you could be having in your stack with immediate benefits.

alright, that's getting a touch on the rambling side of things, so i'll cut it there. i think my point was decently clear and all that. i'll be more than happy to continue in this or other lines if someone wants.

citanul

[ilya]

So what you're saying is,

"It doesn't really matter what your cards are, since the overwhelming majority of your equity comes from all the times that Villain folds"

?

If that's what you're saying then I agree.

[45suited]

Or put another way: "I know damn well what I need to do, I just have to grow a pair and do it." Understood.

[45suited]

This brings another question to mind: I am one to never show my cards, but after I push back with whatever random junk and mini-raiser folds, would this be a spot where showing might have some value? Just to show him that he's messing with the wrong guy?

[citanul]

yes, that.

and that people for some reason get attached to this concept of one "non great" hand being better than another by enough to justify making a play where getting called is the "backup plan" with one hand instead of the other, is somewhat ridiculous.

good to see you agree with the main point though. i just think that the corollary is important, and missing from a lot of people's reasoning.

citanul

[citanul]

no, i would not consider showing cards in this spot. you would rather him have the concept of "damn, ran into a hand" and then next time he can go "damn ran into a hand" again when you do it again. that's way better than next time he minraises you and then spite calls with Kx because he knows you're a douche.

inspire fear. don't inspire calls.

citanul

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
no, i would not consider showing cards in this spot. you would rather him have the concept of "damn, ran into a hand" and then next time he can go "damn ran into a hand" again when you do it again. that's way better than next time he minraises you and then spite calls with Kx because he knows you're a douche.

inspire fear. don't inspire calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Makes sense to me. Also, after I posted the question, I realized that showing here would also hurt my FE against the rest of the table as well. Not good.

[villainy]

I agree with one of the other poster's advice. "Grow a pair" and stand up. Until you show him you're not a pidgeon .....
he's going to go after you. I'm a bully too.... stand up and he'll look for easier pidgeons.