How would YOU play this? Part 1

[Buckshot]

This is a two part post because the information on flop play is more of what I'm interested in. I believe the rest of the hand plays fairly easily depending on what you do on the flop. Please read part one before reading part two. Thanks in advance for your comments.

You are in a short handed game, only five players. You know how everyone plays. BB is loose-aggressive, UTG is loose-passive, MP is tight-passive, B is tight-aggressive but you've seen him 3 bet QJo so it's up in the air now. You, the SB, fancies himself the best player at the table. Let's get on with the hand now.

You have TJo . Everyone has limped in as do you. The BB raises and everyone calls.

Flop: A/forums/images/icons/heart.gif K/forums/images/icons/spade.gif Q/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif

There are many questions about how to play this flop. I just want to know if anyone would (A) bet this flop, (B) check raise, or (C) call any bets planning to check raise the turn?

TBC.

~stephen

[Buckshot]

The BB bet, UTG called, MP and Button folded. I smooth called.

Turn: K/forums/images/icons/club.gif

BB bet, UTG called, I raised, BB called, UTG folded.

River: Q/forums/images/icons/club.gif

Does anyone value bet? I checked, BB bet and I called. My hand was good.

My friends said that betting the flop here is a better play because you want to be raised. I'm not sure that's entirely true but I do see his point. The hand is still vulnerable if the board pairs and, as you can see in this case, it paired twice.

What are everyone elses thoughts?

~stephen

[Toro]

When I flop the nuts I almost always bet since I think this is the most deceptive play that you can make. In my experience trying for check raises usually makes you less money because you often miss bets. Betting a flop such as this with the nuts also sets you up nicely for other hands since they now have to respect what you are representing.

[Toro]

I would not value bet the river after the board two paired. I think that it was incredible that your hand was still good in that situation. I would have done exactly as you did, check, call and hold my breath.

[Ulysses]

I'd bet the flop and expect to get raised by the BB. I'd hope that this hit one of the tight players enough for them to cold-call or raise. Either way, I'd call and go for the check-raise on the turn.

[Ulysses]

I'd play the turn as you did most of the time. With a very aggressive BB, I might bet out on the turn expecting to get raised by the BB representing something big, then 3-bet.

I'd check-call the river as well.

[Snoman]

I think that is important to note that the BB in this case is a maniac on tilt and is prone to giving excessive action. I would bet out and hope to go to war on the flop while I still liked my hand; narrowing the field is an admirable goal given the pot size. There are a lot of cards to come that could cause you to lose or split. On the turn it is necessary to slow down as even a maniac can get a hand and if you are not beat than let him bet your hand. On the river a crying call is in order given that your opponent could have about anything but a value bet is out of the question unless he dropped his cards face up. Maybe next we can discuss the proper play of 2 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 4 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif from the small blind for a raise? /forums/images/icons/smile.gif
Sno

[PokerPrince]

Well you have the flopped nuts on a rainbow board so I think betting out would be a mistake. There a better than average chance the BB will raise you here and drive away any players that are drawing dead/nearly dead. I would most likely wait till the turn to lower the boom on the field here.

PokerPrince

[ender]

I haven't read any of the other responses, but I would bet this flop 100% of the time. It's hard to say I always do something, but this is one of those situations.

There are too many ways this flop can hit the other players and give them a chance to raise. You are in a perfect spot to trap players in between when you 3 bet. I used to get cute and check raise alot more, but after reading this forums I've changed my mind. You'll get more money in the long run by betting out.

[ender]

I liked the way you played the turn and the river. It all seems pretty straight forward. I wouldn't call a bet on the river a "value bet", I would call it a bluff. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[mike l.]

check, planning to call and lauch your attack on the turn.

im guessing a lot of players on here will fast play this on the flop and that is plum stupid. in case you didnt notice, the bet size doubles on the turn and river.

[mike l.]

"My friends said that betting the flop here is a better play because you want to be raised."

he's so wrong. you flopped broadway on a rainbow board. bb raised preflop so he will very likely bet the flop so you will make some flop money. betting so bb raises and you lose people drawing near dead w/ pairs and gutshots is just plain horrid.

"The hand is still vulnerable if the board pairs and, as you can see in this case, it paired twice."

that wont happen often. the vast majority of the time you will get a chance to raise on the turn or river and you will have someone w/ a good second best hand paying you off. this hand practially plays iteself.

[Ulysses]

The bet sizes double on the turn and river where you play? Wow, that does change things quite a bit!

Seriously, I still think betting out on this flop is the right move. With an over-aggressive BB, I like to bet out and then call the raise. Do you really think he won't bet the turn and let me check-raise there because I bet the flop? A lot of times betting out against this kind of lineup will also result in one of the tight players trying to isolate BB w/ something like top pair.

Having said that, as I said in my initial post, I think the right thing to do is bet the flop and flat-call the one or two bets that come back to you. I'm sure you'll still have the opportunity to check-raise the turn.

[Ulysses]

I agree w/ you that getting people out is not the objective with this flop.

However, there's a good chance the other players (esp tight aggressive and tight passive) caught a nice piece of this flop. What do they have (especially tight-aggressive) that they call a flop bet with but lay down to over-aggressive BB's raise? And so many loose players seem to have the attitude that calling one or two bets on the flop is the same thing. Maybe tight-passive folds when bb raises, but I think it's just as likely that tight-aggressive and bb go to war over this flop and you get "stuck" in the middle with the nuts.

[mike l.]

"Seriously, I still think betting out on this flop is the right move. With an over-aggressive BB, I like to bet out and then call the raise. Do you really think he won't bet the turn and let me check-raise there because I bet the flop?"

youre not thining this through very well. you need to consider that bb may have a hand he will bet the flop w/ but wont raise w/ if you bet. he may even have something like 88 that he will fold. since there are no good draws on this flop you are betting the flop w/ either a made hand (most likey a pair of aces) or on a complete bluff betting into 4 players. the latter seems very unlikely as it's so kamikaze. so by betting the flop here you scare even non-observant opponents. also you seem only concerned w/ the bb as if the hand were already heads up on the flop. you need to consider the sorts of hands your opponents may have. they may have knicked the flop w/ something like QJ or QT and be willing to call one bet on the flop w/ only 3 outs to a tie, but they will fold for two bets. you dont want to lose that money as it's almost dead money. you see?

"A lot of times betting out against this kind of lineup will also result in one of the tight players trying to isolate BB w/ something like top pair."

all the more reason to check the flop let them do all the betting. i dont advocate slowplaying in all cases, but in this particular place you should usually slow play till the expensive streets where your opponents may be a little more attached to their hands.


Having said that, as I said in my initial post, I think the right thing to do is bet the flop and flat-call the one or two bets that come back to you. I'm sure you'll still have the opportunity to check-raise the turn.

[Ulysses]

I understand what you're saying and agree with most of it. And I definitely considered those kinds of holding in the other hands.

The reason I still advocated betting the flop is that I find a board like this is one where the typical loose aggressive players I play against will raise almost every time if I bet out. And at 15-30/20-40, the opponents behind are usually observant enough to know that, so they'll often completely discount that raise. By the time it gets back to little ol' me, they've forgotten that I was the one who initiated betting because all the focus is on the annoying BB.

Anyway, I think your approach is very valid and may well be best, but I definitely think that with this flop against a lot of lineups, there's a chance to collect a few extra bets by betting out on the flop.

[mikelow]

I think you played it fine. On the flop, your call is ok, you got to check-raise the turn. The river card forced you into check-call mode.

[rtucker5]

I think not putting in a bet on this flop is a big mistake. This is a pot where everyone got trapped in for 2 bets pre-flop. If they have any piece of this flop, they will go to the turn because of the pot size. You flopped exactly what you were looking for, bet. The BB will probably raise giving you a choice to 3 bet or go for the check-raise on the turn depending on who else comes along. The worst thing that can happen is for the board to pair or a J or 10 comes killing your action. I say get as much money in the pot as you can multiway when you are still sure you have the best hand.

[FishyWhale]

when "utg" already is equivalent to "button-2". The "cutoff" (MP) is in late position, not middle position, so I hope you didn´t call him MP because you thought he was in middle position, because that would be very wrong.

[FishyWhale]

Perfect time for stop and go: Bet flop, (cold) call, Bet turn. If the LAG doesn´t have anything you wont give a free card, if he was hit, he will very likely raise again, so you can 3-bet.

[2ndGoat]

After the all the hullaballu over this hand at last night's game, I had to take a look...

I like checking, with the intentioning of springing to life before the next card is dealt. If you're truly messing around with a tilted maniac, he may just three-bet your checkraise. Now, I don't like making people coldcall two by betting out, but they're that much more trapped to call it the second betting orbit, if there's now another round of half-bets sitting in the pot. If I *can* pull that off (that is, a 3-or-better-handed pot for 3 flop bets), I think I'm more likely to get callers the rest of the way with the enourmous pot built.
If he doesn't three-bet (I know that even a tilted player can slow down vs a checkraise) I did manage to trap every one for two without confronting them with any multi-bet coldcall at all.

Now if he bets, and someone else raises, I really want to smoothcall, except that throwing two out looks hideously suspicious. Depends on how my opponents would react to that. I may end up 3-betting there, just to show more weakness than calling 2, if that's how it will be perceived.

Will anyone call a bet with those hands that "knicked the flop", the KJ-QJ-QT types?

I certainly want to get my money in now if I can, though. AKQJT are all unwelcome.

Btw, to the regulars in this game, I don't think I'm going to make any money off the game, there weren't enough soft spots last night and they weren't all that soft where I could find them, which suggests I'm one of soft spots myself. Maybe I can come back after I convince myself to stop being cute all the time. Partypoker is much kinder.

2ndGoat

[cpk]

I don't really know why fast-playing is such a mistake. This is a short-handed game, and if you're the "best player at the table," you've been extremely aggressive all evening. Slow-playing itself will set off a major red flag in a competent player's mind.

I think check-raising the flop is OK if that's what you'd do if you flopped any piece of the flop at all. Who's going to know the difference? Plus, let's say everyone calls the BB's expected bet. If you check-raise and the BB reraises, that's still 9:1 pot odds for everyone else. Considering the absolutely monstrous implied pot odds in a double-bet-on-the-end game, I don't think you're scaring anyone.

You don't have to raise again, though. I would check-raise the turn, too, and I'd probably put in a 4th bet because maniacs would usually slowplay a full house. On the river I guess I have to check and crying call the superbet.

I think mike l. is wrong. Slowplaying is a mistake if playing fast wouldn't cost you any action, and I think the pot at 10+ bets is already large enough to play hard at. See the chapter on slowplaying in the TOP.

[J_V]

Betting is a mistake. Check-raising the flop is the best play.

[J_V]

There is a good chance that noone can touch this hand. In fact, some portion of the time the only outs against you will be runner runner full houses. It's worth playing hard at if there is a good chance you'll lose, but that good chance isn't there. Besides backdoor flushes you aren't moving the hands that are gonna beat you by betting out. AK,AQ, and a set aren't folding. Any gutshot is drawing to three outs for half the pot and you want them in.

[cpk]

Read again. I think we both advocate the same play--check-raise the flop, wait until the turn to give more action.