Hall of Fame voting this year

[Clarkmeister]

Eddie Murray is almost certainly going to be elected today. The only other two realistic possibilities seem to be Gary Carter and Ryne Sandberg, though I doubt either will make it this year.

My question is this.......why do people care if someone gets in on the first ballot or not? You either are or are not a hall of famer. Once you are in, no one cares how you got in. I think it is silly that people are forced to wait until a "down" year before finally getting in.

[IrishHand]

I think it's silly that people are eligible for more than a year. The quality of non-first-year inductees is markedly inferior. Despite this, baseball still has the only Hall of Fame with any legitimacy. Unlike the other sports, they haven't caved in to the urge to fill their Hall with a pile of above-average players. With a few notable exceptions, MLB's Hall is a testament to greatness.

So saying, I'm somewhat sad that Carter made it in. However, I accept that catchers may be held to a lower standard by virtue of the increased demands their position places upon them defensively.

Irish

[B-Man]

Agreed. The first-ballot thing is silly. Gary Carter didn't deserve to be elected the last 5 years, and he still doesn't deserve to be in (see my post below). His numbers haven't changed since last January...

Also, did you know that no player in history has ever been unanimously elected? How ridiculous is that? Somebody with the credentials to vote didn't think Ted Williams should get in? Babe Ruth? Willie Mays?

People who don't vote for all-time greats, and people who vote for players like Rick Honeycutt and Mark Davis (both got votes this year) should lose their voting privileges.

[andyfox]

I imagine the lack of a unanimous selection has more to do with racism or personality-clash than merit. I remember being astounded when the vote for Hank Aaron wasn't unanimous.

And I imagine the votes for the Rick Honeycutts have more to do with friendship than merit.

[IrishHand]

I tend to doubt most ommissions are that nefarious. There are a lot of reasons why you wouldn't vote for a Babe Ruth. For example, let's say that year there are 11 guys you want to vote for. Whom would you leave out? If there's a shoo-in, it makes the most sense to vote for all but him. Your vote for him doens't change a thing, while a vote for another might.

Also, there is no set standard for voting. Pretty well any moron can come up with arguments for not voting for almost anyone if they set their mind to it. Williams, for example, was an public relations disaster. Now, you might say that's got nothing to do with baseball achievements or whether they merit the Hall. I disagree. The Hall of Fame is a celebration of the greatest players in history. If a player behaved in a way so as to allow his off-field actions to affect his perception of a baseball player, so be it. Along those lines, it's easy to leave off Ruth as a drunken womanizer.

Irish

[andyfox]

Good points.

The first balloting, in 1936, was intereseting. There were actually two polls: one consisting of the 226 members of the Baseball Writer's Associaion of America, and another by a special veteran's committee of 78 desgined to choose from "old-timers." Unfortunately, no specific guidelines were issued as to who was eligible for consideration (Mickey Cochrane, who was still playing, finised 10th in the baseball writers' poll), nor to which committee a player should be assigned: Cy Young received 49% in the writers' poll, and 41% in the veterans' poll.

Anyway, you needed 75% in either poll to be elected. The veterans' committee elected nobody. No one came close. The baseball writers elected five people. Here are the totals (out of 226)

Ty Cobb 222
Babe Ruth 215
Honus Wagner 215
Christy Mathewson 205
Walter Johnson 189

Interesting that Cobb got more votes than Ruth. I remember when I was a kid in the early 1960s that a majority of writers felt Cobb was the greater player even then. Also interesting that Honus Wagner got as many votes as Ruth. Many people who saw both Cobb and Wagner felt Wagner was the greater player. And Mathewson got more votes than Johnson; today virtually nobody rates Mathewson above Johnson. Matty was beloved, though, and his young death related to his participation in WWI may have contributed to this.

[Josh W]

you are absolutely right about people not voting for a shoo-ins because they want to vote for somebody else.

The highest ever percentage (save the first voting), was for Nolan Ryan...Either one or two writers didn't vote for him, saying that they knew Ryan would get it, and deserved to get in, but they wanted to vote for somebody else (who it was escapes me at this moment) in a hope that their vote would put this bubble-player over the top.

josh

[Clarkmeister]

I don't know about only 1 year of eligibility, but certainly a 3 year cap seems reasonable. Force these sanctimonious writers to make up their minds and move on.

[Bill Murphy]

"Despite this, baseball still has the only Hall of Fame with any legitimacy. Unlike the other sports, they haven't caved in to the urge to fill their Hall with a pile of above-average players. With a few notable exceptions, MLB's Hall is a testament to greatness."

Irish, I comp'ly disagree w/the above and I can't think of any respected sportswriter or analyst who would agree w/you. I've read at least five long articles on this subject(Keith Olbermann's was prolly best) that state that at least 5-10% of the HOF'ers clearly don't belong, and another 10-15% are very marginal.

The FBall & BKBall HOF's are normally criticized for who's NOT in (ABA, AFL, Euros; they are NOT called the NFL & NBA HOF's), very few complaints about who's in already. I doubt there's a lot of dogs in the HBall HOF, either, although mebbe the Canucks here could let us know. /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

Women's golf has by far the best HOF. Pure performance standards, except for their greatest booster, Dinah Shore. As for men's golf, the golf equivalent(almost an exact corollary) to Kirby Puckett is Payne Stewart(multi 'majors', shortened career, very popular). Several major golf writers have stated that if Payne gets in, it's out of sympathy. IMO, he gets in[barely, along w/Tom Kite], but nobody would put him in Faldo or Norman's class.

Darryl Kile put on the ballot early, like Roberto Clemente??? What's that supposed do, make his family feel better? As if anyone in golf would put Jim Furyk on the 'ballot' if he croaked tomorrow.

The BBall HOF induction process was/is overrun by sentiment, vindictiveness, politics, pettiness, and shameless campaigning. It's been suggested that a "Super HOF" be started; i.e. Ruth, Aaron, Koufax, etc. Sounds good to me.

[HDPM]

One nit-pick. I would rank Payne Stewart with Norman. He won 50% more majors (3 to 2) and won two different majors. Norman won one major twice. Even though the PGA and US Open have similar set-ups, the US Open is harder to win than the British and 2 different majors is 2 different majors. I think Norman is perhaps the most overrated player in history. Stewart also was much better to watch. Normans goofy foot slither vs. Stewart's classic swing - Stewart wins that battle. They both wore awful hats, but Stewarts weren't quite as bad after he dumped the NFL logos. Norman wins in the trousers department though.

[andyfox]

I think Norman won the runner-up slam twice--he finished second in each major twice. Considering Larry Mize's miracle shot at Augusta, and Tway's hole out from the trap in the PGA, he came awfully close to winning a lot of majors. And I think a kind of empathy for what might have been, plus his charisma, make people think he was greater than he was.

The final round at Augusta with Faldo was the most painful golf round I've ever watched.

[Clarkmeister]

That round was the funniest thing I had ever seen. I mean, you just knew. Period. I was in college at the time and took 2-1 from a friend on Faldo prior to the 4th round starting. Easiest money I ever made.

Mickelson is making a serious run at Greg as the most overrated golfer of all time, and amazingly seems to have just as much, if not more, choke in him. I now actively cheer every time I watch Phil gag on an important putt or airmail a critical tee shot. He's a joke. Not as big a joke as Norman......yet.....but he's well on his way.

[M2d]

Ironic how, given the cheddar and the hammer that Ryan brought to the mound, one of the most overrated, underacheiving pitchers in history got the highest vote percentage.