Who likes pushing QQ early w/3 limpers in front?

[CarlSpackler]

My standard play in this situation is to raise between 150-200. I’ve been experimenting with some different ways to play hands, and thus I decided to push here since there was already 135 in the pot. How often do you think I get a fishy call here with a lower pp/aq or worse, in a Party 33sng? Do you think pushing here is worse, better, or about the same, as compared to raising 150 – 200 instead? Why?

33sng – bb t30

Table Table 12284 (Real Money) -- Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: TheSawDoctor (775)
Seat 2: HERO (775)
Seat 3: nahz5791 (930)
Seat 4: bbarbee (210)
Seat 5: wedders19 (770)
Seat 6: Aces_McCoy (580)
Seat 7: rickydee28 (645)
Seat 8: TexasPhil883 (1040)
Seat 9: jason0404 (730)
Seat 10: Trippertx (1545)
wedders19 posts small blind (15)
Aces_McCoy posts big blind (30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif ]
rickydee28 calls (30)
TexasPhil883 calls (30)
jason0404 folds.
Trippertx folds.
TheSawDoctor calls (30)
HERO raises (775) to 775
HERO is all-In.

[kyro]

I did the exact same thing with 690 chips and AKo last night. I like this play as it almost guarantees you an increase of 135 chips, and on the off chance someone does call, you will double up a good majority of the time.

[Lady Dont Tekno]

Don't cop out, just raise. You need to be able to play this post-flop. I mean even at the Party $33 you're going to get AJ+ calling sometimes (and possibly worse) so save yourself some early bad beat tourney ousts and just raise.

Take the gambooL out of SNGs early. You'll get enough of that on the bubble.

-LDT

[kyro]

With 1000 chips stacks it's a copout. With 800 chip stacks, I think it's a decent play.

[Yawkey]

I don't like pushing here, and there are a couple of reasons. The first and probably most important is the cards that will call, these are AA, KK, AK. This brings us to Doyle Brunson's view on pocket A's and K's, "you win a small pot, or loose a big pot". The raise is a much better play here I think, because it gives your opponents a chance to make a mistake call with lesser cards. It will also give you better idea if you are up against AA, or KK. Unless the opponent is on tilt, you can bet that they aren't raising without a hand that can compete with your queens. With callers you can become cautious on the flop if A or K falls.

[kyro]

You vastly overestimate your opponents.

[Lady Dont Tekno]

To elaborate further why pushing is bad.

AA-JJ are the TOP 4 starting hands and I expect that when I have one it's the best hand over 95% of the time. When I KNOW I have the best hand I'm looking to maximize my earn.

Pro's of pushing:
- Low risk.
Con's of pushing:
- You don't make much in this situation.

Pro's of raising:
- Worse hands will call.
- Can get away from bad flops while still having a stack.
Con's of raising:
- Risk of multiway pot (worst thing possible).

I think people sometime's get too caught up with playing extra tight/super aggressive early in SNGs. That's obviously good play but when you almost positively have the best hand, don't play scared.

my 2 cents that's probably misguided
-LDT

[BradleyT]

[ QUOTE ]
you're going to get AJ+ calling sometimes (and possibly worse)

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, that's a good thing.

[Lady Dont Tekno]

Obviously, the idea is I don't like gambling early in tournaments when I can simply fold to [censored] flops. Level 4+ easy push.

-LDT

[kyro]

I like gambling if I think I'm going to have a 70% chance to double up.

[wulfheir]

I raise to ~200. If an A or K hits, I fold to aggression.

[Moonsugar]

I think the play is OK. Wouldn't be my default but it is OK. The lower the level the better the play. Also, as you play higher buy ins, if you only make this move with good hands, you are wasting the good hands.

Edit: At 33 I don't know if this move has more value than a normal raise, but at 109 which is what I play most right now, I think it has considerably less.

[11t]

I'd rather take a 70/30 race early than a 50/50 cf on the bubble and hit the bubble with a big stack to pound the lil guys into submission.

Thats just me though.

[11t]

Thats so weak tight man.

[Lady Dont Tekno]

Ok Moonsugar says what I'm trying to say, but better =).

-LDT

[CarlSpackler]

At the 109's and above don't many players often make this same move with "any 2 cards," not monsters like qq, due to the fact that most of their opponents are at least competent, if not good players, and will lay down their hands?

[microbet]

I don't push here, but it's not because I'm afraid AJ will call.

[durron597]

Raise to 175. Sure pushing is +EV, but not as +EV as a small raise.

[keithb]

A more interesting question would be, if you raise 3 times the BB rather than push, what happens if one of the limpers or someone behind you re-raises you but doesn't put you all in? Say if you call, you would have $300 left in chips (or something like that). Now you know you are beat most likely. Do you fold, call and limit yourself to $300 left in chips and the very real potential that an A or K will fall on the flop and then you are probably screwed, or do you push all in, knowing you are probably up against AA, KK or at a minimum AK? I think you have to fold to the re-raise here.

The real problem with raising 3 times the BB here, is that more than likely, you'll end up in a multi-way pot, because there will almost always be 3-4 callers (well heck I'm already in for $30, let's have some action) or a re-raiser.

I've been playing queens very gingerly 10 handed. I might play them like any other pair here and limp in and see if I hit trips or not. If that A or K shows up on the board with 3-4 players in the pot, you are stewed.

[hummusx]

[ QUOTE ]
A more interesting question would be, if you raise 3 times the BB rather than push, what happens if one of the limpers or someone behind you re-raises you but doesn't put you all in? Say if you call, you would have $300 left in chips (or something like that). Now you know you are beat most likely. Do you fold, call and limit yourself to $300 left in chips and the very real potential that an A or K will fall on the flop and then you are probably screwed, or do you push all in, knowing you are probably up against AA, KK or at a minimum AK? I think you have to fold to the re-raise here.

The real problem with raising 3 times the BB here, is that more than likely, you'll end up in a multi-way pot, because there will almost always be 3-4 callers (well heck I'm already in for $30, let's have some action) or a re-raiser.

I've been playing queens very gingerly 10 handed. I might play them like any other pair here and limp in and see if I hit trips or not. If that A or K shows up on the board with 3-4 players in the pot, you are stewed.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, no, no. Firstly, you can't raise over limpers only 3x. 3x + limpers is normal. So with two limpers at 30 each, you should be raising to around 150. If you think callers are above average to call, then make it a little more.

Secondly, you are giving Party players WAY too much credit. I've been all in with two people with UNDERPAIRS to my queens preflop in the first couple rounds in a 33. This is a massively profitable situation. When I raise to 175 over limpers, I am not afraid of the re-raise at all. Once in a while it's going to be AA or KK and I'm going to lose. Oh well. More likely it's some donk with AJ or worse who thinks he has a premium hand. If someone comes back with a raise to 350 or whatever, I'm pushing and laughing all the way to the bank.

[Moonsugar]

Most often they have good cards, of course. But they don't only do it with good cards. As I said, that would waste your good cards, unless you had a couple of spots you knew loved to spite call.

[AliasMrJones]

[ QUOTE ]
A more interesting question would be, if you raise 3 times the BB rather than push, what happens if one of the limpers or someone behind you re-raises you but doesn't put you all in? Say if you call, you would have $300 left in chips (or something like that). Now you know you are beat most likely. Do you fold, call and limit yourself to $300 left in chips and the very real potential that an A or K will fall on the flop and then you are probably screwed, or do you push all in, knowing you are probably up against AA, KK or at a minimum AK? I think you have to fold to the re-raise here.

The real problem with raising 3 times the BB here, is that more than likely, you'll end up in a multi-way pot, because there will almost always be 3-4 callers (well heck I'm already in for $30, let's have some action) or a re-raiser.

I've been playing queens very gingerly 10 handed. I might play them like any other pair here and limp in and see if I hit trips or not. If that A or K shows up on the board with 3-4 players in the pot, you are stewed.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have the 3rd best starting hand in the game (and the ranking isn't affected by how many other players there are). If you aren't going to raise limpers with this hand you might as well quit the game now.

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the play is OK. Wouldn't be my default but it is OK. The lower the level the better the play. Also, as you play higher buy ins, if you only make this move with good hands, you are wasting the good hands.

Edit: At 33 I don't know if this move has more value than a normal raise, but at 109 which is what I play most right now, I think it has considerably less.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't do this at an $11 with 1000 chips. I'd think about it with 800 chips at a $55, but would probably just end up raising to 200 or so. At a $33 with 800 chips, I think the push nets you a good portion of chips a very good portion of the time.

[RobGW]

How do you make money playing poker? You make money by making your opponents make mistakes. By raising all in here you are basically letting all the bad players off the hook making it easy for them to fold their marginal holdings. Occassional you'll get a fish to bite. Making a raise though, big enough to get some limpers out but maybe one to call. Now unless that person has AA or KK he made a big mistake. In the long run this will benefit you. This seems like a waste of a premium hand which don't come around that often.

[hobbes9324]

Well.....if your theory is that you make your money off fishy mistakes, at this level a fair number of fish will call with hands worse than QQ - so you pick up a big stack of chips......if they fold, some profit is better than none.......I lean towards pushing.....but I'm a noob....

[Moonsugar]

I don't understand why. What is the difference between 800 and 1000 behind? You are basically offering the opps. the same odds if you push. And if you raise to 200 they have 4.5:1 implied v. 5.5:1 implied, not a huge difference.

Value is extracted from a move like this by your opponents making big mistakes by calling with less than QQ+, AK. In my estimation the lower you go in limits the more opponents are likely to call with less than that range. Since opps at higher levels are less likely to call without that range you are probably giving up too much value in one of your best hands by doing this move at higher levels.

[keithb]

I guess I misjudged the fishiness at Party. I play UB, where the play is better. There are still fish fo sho, but maybe I need to move to Party and dive in.

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why. What is the difference between 800 and 1000 behind? You are basically offering the opps. the same odds if you push. And if you raise to 200 they have 4.5:1 implied v. 5.5:1 implied, not a huge difference.

Value is extracted from a move like this by your opponents making big mistakes by calling with less than QQ+, AK. In my estimation the lower you go in limits the more opponents are likely to call with less than that range. Since opps at higher levels are less likely to call without that range you are probably giving up too much value in one of your best hands by doing this move at higher levels.

[/ QUOTE ]

My point is they will call with crap at the lower levels. I've already said I wouldn't do this at the $55. And if they DON'T happen to call, yay, I increase my stack by 20%!