Thoughts on table image

[Wynton]

Here are some random table image thoughts.

Seems to me that we spend a lot more time discussing what actions should be taken based upon the tendencies of our opponents, than based upon our own table image. I think this is a mistake.

In fact, to the extent that anyone likes using a preflop chart, I'd suggest that the chart not only should account for the looseness/aggressiveness of the table, but one's own image.

For example, I've heard many people debate what to do with Q10s after limpers, or how to play 55 utg. I'd argue, though, that the answers vary significantly depending upon one's image. Thus, a chart could indicate that we fold 55 utg after raising 2 out of the last 3 hands, but raising with it after folding 5 times in a row.

Why don't we discuss our own table image as much as the tendencies of other players? Is this because we assume that other people aren't paying attention? Or is this because we assume that everyone here has the same, basic image, i.e., presumably somewhere in the spectrum of TAG to LAG?

[RunDownHouse]

At our levels, Wynton, unless you've been doing some really wacky stuff, or been getting run over by the deck, or been caught bluffing 3 streets with 9 high or something, I don't think our opponents notice enough for it to matter.

[Wynton]

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At our levels, Wynton, unless you've been doing some really wacky stuff, or been getting run over by the deck, or been caught bluffing 3 streets with 9 high or something, I don't think our opponents notice enough for it to matter.

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I'm not sure. Even at 2/4, I think that players notice if you raise preflop three times in a row. And I think they notice if you fire away on each street to the river, with an underpair and a dangerous board.

On the other hand, I agree that players tend not to notice tight play.

I can recall a number of occasions where I displayed an overly tight image to start with (simply because the cards sucked) and when I finally come in raising, I still get several callers.

[Lmn55d]

i disagree. I think they definitely notice.

[pjsub]

Very interesting point. I've wondered whether I should do this and sometimes do. For example, raising pre-flop three times in a row and then getting something like A2o in CO. After the previous raises the steal value of the hand has gone right down. Also, some people will re-raise you just because they think you're trying to steam-roll the table. This makes the hand more expensive to play as you become less likely to win by shear force UI. However, people playing back at you because of your image can be a good thing as they will make more mistakes.

As for players taking notice of you. Even the worse players will notice you raising 8 of the last ten hands. However I think they tend to forget previous actions very quickly.

[stir]

I agree many of us should consider our own image more. It is something to work on.

As to why we put more emphasis on our opponents it is because of the desire to obtain/increase good reads.

[RunDownHouse]

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i disagree. I think they definitely notice.

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I do agree that they may get a sort of general "first impression" that is fairly persistent. But that's part and parcel of not really paying attention. For instance, if you sit down and immediately raise your first 6 hands, they'll peg you as a nutjob for the rest of their session, even if you then fold everything for 3 orbits. Your next raise in, they'll still think of you as a maniac. Note that this goes much more for things like raising than folding/checking. People tend to remember actions much more strongly than inaction.

But as for noticing that an orbit ago you were the pf raiser and bet a pair of tens on the river with a KTxxx board, or that you raised precisely 3 of 4 hands, or that you will go as low as raising T9s after two limpers... no 1/2-3/6 (5/10?) player will ever notice that kind of stuff, unless they are above average.

[Bluffoon]

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i disagree. I think they definitely notice.

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I do agree that they may get a sort of general "first impression" that is fairly persistent. But that's part and parcel of not really paying attention. For instance, if you sit down and immediately raise your first 6 hands, they'll peg you as a nutjob for the rest of their session, even if you then fold everything for 3 orbits. Your next raise in, they'll still think of you as a maniac. Note that this goes much more for things like raising than folding/checking. People tend to remember actions much more strongly than inaction.

But as for noticing that an orbit ago you were the pf raiser and bet a pair of tens on the river with a KTxxx board, or that you raised precisely 3 of 4 hands, or that you will go as low as raising T9s after two limpers... no 1/2-3/6 (5/10?) player will ever notice that kind of stuff, unless they are above average.

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I think wynton's ideas have alot of merit and I think that RDH has nailed the key to this issue for lower limits anyway. I too find that most opponents put me on a "style" somewhat quickly and are decidedly not so quick to change that impression even given suffucient evidence to do so. So what I usually do is to pay attention to/or note the image I have seemd to impart on my opponents and to use what I judge to be my initial impression to my advantage. I also take note of opponents who seem to adjust quickly to changes in my play. I have found the ability to adjust quickly to variations in my play to be a strong indicator of overall ability.

[Wynton]

Yeah, I basically agree with RDH too. It's not true that people are totally oblivious to the most obvious actions, but it surely is true that they don't notice most of what happens.

I'm curious how true this remains at the higher levels. Perhaps I'll find out in a few decades. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[JDErickson]

It still amases me that I can fold every hand for an hour and then raise and get 5 callers.

I definately consider my table image when I'm faced with a marginal situation. If I'm getting respect I'm going to play it for all its worth. On the other hand if my table image is bad I might just fold AJo UTG

[fyodor]

I for one pay a lot of attention to how I may be perceived at the table. I find myself folding a hand at one table while raising it in the same position at another table at the same time.

If I am hitting a lot at a table it's easy to keep betting even when the flop and turn have both missed me entirely. People seem to believe me more and I get some folds. That's when I start playing 76s UTG.

If I have been missing like mad and getting outdrawn everyone at the table seems to stick around and bet into me more. I have to tighten up and start folding T9s UTG.

That's why I no longer even think in a starting hand chart kind of mode. There are too many hands where the answer is 'it depends'.

[adamstewart]

Table image is extremely important at short-handed games, imo.

Table is not something I "work on," but rather something I am concious of. I'm always thinking of how my opponent's perceive me.

For instance, if I've just raised the last 3 hands preflop, and taken them all down without a showdown. Then I'm dealt a mediocre hand the next (that I would usually play), I'll fold it that time - as I'm sure my opponent's will be wanting to look me up very shortly, and I don't want to get caught with my hand in cookie jar, so to speak.

Recently, I feel I broke a plateau in terms of grasping the concept of "the meta-game." It kinda feels like Keanu Reeves in the Matrix when he actually sees the matrix... It's a cool feeling. (Anyone know what I'm talking about?)

Anyway, I'm now always considering what I did the last hand, and the last hand, and the last five before that... I'm also always looking at what my opponents have been doing, what they likely think of me, what I think of them...

So, for example, when I get dealt K,8o in the CO, these considerations will make the difference between raising and folding....


Adam

[Trix]

I find this important aswell and consider it very often when I´m playing, but I think the reason that people rarely gives it when posting a hand is that it´s hard to look up. Reads, stats and such, you can just open your note file or pokertracker and get, so they are easy to supply, but if you requested a hand history, you may not remember your image at the end of your session when you post the hand.