MRBAA
01-07-2003, 10:51 AM
Dynasty recently posted two things that stuck in what passes for my mind:
1) He said something to the effect of "no winning player plays strictly according to Sklansky/Malmuth HEFAP guidelines"
2) He reported winning 40bb in a recent 4-8 session.
As a low limit stud player learning he, most of my play time has been in the 2-4 paradise games, with some live casino 2-4 and 3-6 experience as well. In the paradise games, many tables have 22-32% of players taking the flop -- pretty tight.
So are the players in these games really strong and solid? While many are, most are not. Many play loosely and passively post flop, don't use position and will let an aggressive player take way too many pots uncalled.
Not only that, many players are prone to change their playing style in the course of a sit. Some will tilt if they take a beat, some will loosen up when they shouldn't in response to aggression. So tight games and tight players don't always stay that way.
I sat with David Ross, who I've seen post intelligently here, last night at a Paradise 2-4 table. David, I was MRKEYS and chatted to you several times because I wanted to get your thoughts on my play.
Benfitting from stronger than average cards, I played aggressively in late and late middle position. At one point I open raised four straight pots starting with my deal with A-Js, A-Qo, K-3o and Q-3o. I won the blinds the first time, took a nice pot when I flopped middle pair and a four straight and hit my straight on the river, won the blinds the third time and got called and folded the flop with the fourth hand.
As my position got earlier, my play became much tighter. However, since there was little pre-flop raising, I'd limp with hands like 9-7s or A-2s. In this game, the opportunities for semi-bluffing were so good I felt it made these hands playable. When I hit nothing, I'd check fold. But with middle pair and a back-door draw, a bet on the flop was often worthwhile because it would win the pot right there. Moreover, players would often check it down on turn and river when I checked the turn with this type of hand, allowing me to win with middle pair unimproved in situations where I could not have called a turn or river bet.
Roy Cooke has written a lot about trying to open up a game, making calls or raises with unusual holdings to do that. And he is playing with much better players, where the opportunities are far less. He's also written that this type of play is much more effective when you are winning then when you are losing in a session.
I've employed somewhat the same strategy in stud, but I think you can do it even more against weaker players in he, as you have no showing cards.
btw, I don't think this is some "miracle" discovery, or expect to have an astronomical earn playing this way -- you are sometimes going to have your bluffs called or make expensive second best hands with a looser and more aggressive pre-flop style.
But I have been winning on average about 1bb/an hour in he on pp 2-4 (my stud rate is over 3bb/hour at same limit). And I think in many of these games, loosening up and getting creative preflop will produce a better earn than just playing tight.
Very interested to read what Dynasty has to say on these ramblings, as well as what David Ross thought of my play.
1) He said something to the effect of "no winning player plays strictly according to Sklansky/Malmuth HEFAP guidelines"
2) He reported winning 40bb in a recent 4-8 session.
As a low limit stud player learning he, most of my play time has been in the 2-4 paradise games, with some live casino 2-4 and 3-6 experience as well. In the paradise games, many tables have 22-32% of players taking the flop -- pretty tight.
So are the players in these games really strong and solid? While many are, most are not. Many play loosely and passively post flop, don't use position and will let an aggressive player take way too many pots uncalled.
Not only that, many players are prone to change their playing style in the course of a sit. Some will tilt if they take a beat, some will loosen up when they shouldn't in response to aggression. So tight games and tight players don't always stay that way.
I sat with David Ross, who I've seen post intelligently here, last night at a Paradise 2-4 table. David, I was MRKEYS and chatted to you several times because I wanted to get your thoughts on my play.
Benfitting from stronger than average cards, I played aggressively in late and late middle position. At one point I open raised four straight pots starting with my deal with A-Js, A-Qo, K-3o and Q-3o. I won the blinds the first time, took a nice pot when I flopped middle pair and a four straight and hit my straight on the river, won the blinds the third time and got called and folded the flop with the fourth hand.
As my position got earlier, my play became much tighter. However, since there was little pre-flop raising, I'd limp with hands like 9-7s or A-2s. In this game, the opportunities for semi-bluffing were so good I felt it made these hands playable. When I hit nothing, I'd check fold. But with middle pair and a back-door draw, a bet on the flop was often worthwhile because it would win the pot right there. Moreover, players would often check it down on turn and river when I checked the turn with this type of hand, allowing me to win with middle pair unimproved in situations where I could not have called a turn or river bet.
Roy Cooke has written a lot about trying to open up a game, making calls or raises with unusual holdings to do that. And he is playing with much better players, where the opportunities are far less. He's also written that this type of play is much more effective when you are winning then when you are losing in a session.
I've employed somewhat the same strategy in stud, but I think you can do it even more against weaker players in he, as you have no showing cards.
btw, I don't think this is some "miracle" discovery, or expect to have an astronomical earn playing this way -- you are sometimes going to have your bluffs called or make expensive second best hands with a looser and more aggressive pre-flop style.
But I have been winning on average about 1bb/an hour in he on pp 2-4 (my stud rate is over 3bb/hour at same limit). And I think in many of these games, loosening up and getting creative preflop will produce a better earn than just playing tight.
Very interested to read what Dynasty has to say on these ramblings, as well as what David Ross thought of my play.