Is post flop play important in your game?

[PokerCat69]

Do many of you play like AleoMagus's guide:
http://bonus-codes.com/showarticle.php?a=16
Lots of 3XBB raises/limping/post flop play, or do you find it better to simply push/fold and make 90% of your decesions preflop?

[pergesu]

I'm a postflop god. But then the blinds get big and it becomes a series of push/fold decisions based entirely on math.

[PokerCat69]

When blinds hit 50/100 I'm all in/fold (most of the time). Up to that point I do limp or make standard raises. However I see MANY players play flops right through the tourny until they are 3-4 handed.

[citanul]

alright, your post is pretty nonsensical, so i thought i'd reply on a tangent:

what the [censored] is that other site you are linking to? that person cut and pasted the text of at least a significant chunk of the "aleo's guide." while not only would i have issue with that if i were aleo, i think that there might be text in the terms and conditions about 2+2 owning the texts put into their message boards.

pretty shady [censored] honestly.

honestly, i think that there are some people who play as closely as possible to the aleo guide, but i think that they are probably currently not winning money (possibly at all, though definitely not optimally) at any level of party sng.

also, i'm pretty sure that the aleo guide definitively says that you shouldn't be making standard raises and then playing post flop when the blinds are large. so really, on top of all that, wtf are you talking about?

citanul

[PokerCat69]

[ QUOTE ]
also, i'm pretty sure that the aleo guide definitively says that you shouldn't be making standard raises and then playing post flop when the blinds are large. so really, on top of all that, wtf are you talking about?

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]
His guide does suggest that. A quote:
"LEVELS 4-6
Open-raise (at least 3BBs, more if limpers ahead of you) from all positions with:
1. 77-AA, AK, AQ
2. AKs-ATs, KQs-KJs, QJs, JTs"

This is what confused me, cause I don't raise 3BB at this stage, or play like the guide suggests at all.
I was just curious if people used this guide because it seemed a bit wacky to me.

[citanul]

this line, from the guide:

[ QUOTE ]
Play very tight with 4 left, much looser when in money.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, i haven't played the 10+1s lately, but that advice is pattently absurd for any level i know of. so yeah, i'd not play like the guide says. though not hte fault of the guide or it's author, it is outdated.

citanul

[citanul]

also, note this line:

[ QUOTE ]
If any recommended bet is 40% or more of your stack, go all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

since this includes preflop bets, if a 3bb raise would be 40% or more of your stack (2.5 x 3bb = 7.5bb) you are supposed to go all in, even by this guide's advice. in general, many posters vouch for the 10bb rule of pushing all in, that being "if you have less than or equal to 10bb in your stack, and you are making a bet, it should be all in, unless for a very specific reason." numbers between 7.5bb and 10bb can be debated as the number to be used for the rule.

citanul

[Bigwig]

The guide is a starter's tool. I suppose it's fine for that, and probably can beat the $10s for a moderate ROI. Past that, it's no good.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
The guide is a starter's tool. I suppose it's fine for that, and probably can beat the $10s for a moderate ROI. Past that, it's no good.

[/ QUOTE ]

IF it's possible to beat the 10s for a moderate ROI playing by what is contained in the guide, it is not at all possible to do so while playing with "what you think is in the guide but really you have bad reading comprehension."

[igotBlackJak]

does no one else care some other site ganked aleo's post?

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
does no one else care some other site ganked aleo's post?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, other site! Don't 'gank' Aleo's post and sh**!

[DasLeben]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a postflop god. But then the blinds get big and it becomes a series of push/fold decisions based entirely on math.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you're an FPS god. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[flyingmoose]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
does no one else care some other site ganked aleo's post?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, other site! Don't 'gank' Aleo's post and sh**!

[/ QUOTE ]

For real! Ganking Aleo's [censored] is not rocks and rings

[Mr_J]

"cause I don't raise 3BB at this stage"

He also says that if the raise is 40% or more of your stack then push.

The guide can give a beginner an idea of how to play sngs, but I think it's better if they learn the key concepts and work on understanding and applying them better.

[mosdef]

[ QUOTE ]
this line, from the guide:

[ QUOTE ]
Play very tight with 4 left, much looser when in money.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, i haven't played the 10+1s lately, but that advice is pattently absurd for any level i know of. so yeah, i'd not play like the guide says. though not hte fault of the guide or it's author, it is outdated.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

if you know absolutely nothing about bubble play (total beginner who just picked up the guide, for example), tightening up and limping into 3rd is probably better than playing flops. but you're right, the higher ROI play is definitely to shove at appropriate times. i'm not sure a guy just the 10+1 guide and a pocket full of dreams would be able to identify the appropriate times.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
does no one else care some other site ganked aleo's post?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if this is the same site as the one I viewed many months ago, but I PM'd Aleo about it then. He had not authorized it, and he is aware.

Scuba

[AleoMagus]

A few comments about this thread...

1) Yeah, I have seen that site. No, I don't really care. No, I did not authorize it. Truth be told, and nobody seems to remember this, but what is on that site was not posted by me in the first place. It was posted by benfranklin (though he did send it to me first and I did contribute/modify it a bit)

2) That site is not unique. There are many like it, some in foreign languages. For example... Russian 'guide' (http://pokerprofi.info/strategies/sng/howtobeat10.php). As outdated as it is, and as much as I dislike that guide anyways, I could care less.

3) My opinion has always been that the 'guide' is not that single page outline anyways. Most people who talk about that guide these days are probably not even aware of what the guide really was in the first place. I always liked my original post on beating the Party 10+1 better than that second version, precisely because it was not written in point form and it didn't spell out those rules in quite the same way. it also was intended as nothing more than a PM to a struggling player with some general pointers on how to turn a losing game into a winning game. It took on a life of it's own, though I still cannot quite figure out why. It was, after all, just a post like any other.

Here is the post I prefer and my follow up which I also consider very important (Anyone who has not read many of the responses in both major threads is really missing the most valuable part of that 'guide')

Original post (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=&Number=591779&page=&v iew=&sb=5&o=&fpart=)

follow up (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=593340&page=&view=&sb =5&o=&vc=1)

Both are getting very outdated, and there is a lot of comments which could be clarified greatly

Just one example would be my advice to tighten up on the bubble. Anyone who followed the majority of my posts around that time probably came to the realization that I really just meant in calling instances. I think most really weak players could improve their ROI dramitically by just not making as many calls on the bubble. Raise if you think you can still take down the pot without a fight, but avoid showdowns at all costs if it can bust you.

This later post would have fit well with the original guide, and in my heart, I consider it just a part 1.5 or something like that:

A bad way to play the bubble (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=711461&page=&view=&sb =5&o=&vc=1)

That post was really just me talking about ICM before I really knew what ICM was, or that there even was a model to accurately describe what I was getting at.

Sigh. In some ways, it's embarrassing reading through those posts. So much has changed and we all have learned so much.

...

So yeah. Throw that sheet away. It seems to cause nothing but confusion for many, and if there is a 'guide' to playing SNGs, that sheet is not it. Those three posts, combined with that sheet as a future reference are a decent starting point if you are currently a losing. I directed those posts towards a player who was losing, and in a sense towards the mass of losing players who could improve their game by just following a few guidelines.

BUT... The guide isn't anything close to optimal, and probably wouldn't break even these days if given a complete novice.

As far as a modern version of the 'guide' to a real student of the SNG format, Reading most of the links in Shadow's compendium would be a good idea:

Shadow's links (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=1918735 &Forum=,,,,,,All_Forums,,,,,,&Words=&Searchpage=5& Limit=25&Main=1918735&Search=true&where=&Name=3006 5&daterange=&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldert ype=&bodyprev=#Post1918735)

Finally, as far as the original question in this thread... yeah, you will probably have to play a flop now and then. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Regards
Brad S

[Freudian]

The value of the guide can be summed up in three sentences.

Play tight early. Steal as much as you can when blinds are significant. Unleash your poker fury when in the money.

If anyone thinks the guide is about much more than that, I think they will hit a wall learning wise.