101 question on drawing hands

I am getting more aggressive playing the 4 flush and open ended straight draws on the flop. It seems like 9 out of 10 times the turn is a brick. The question is - what next. Do I call a big bet to see the river. One time I did this and caught (with Ace of suit and rag of suit), and I was chastised about the terrible odds of going to the river with this hand - unpaired. I know that it depends on position, pot odds, people in the hand, etc. but is there a general rule that the pros use?


Thanks

Kevin

"...depends on position, pot odds, people in the hand, etc. but is there a general rule that the pros use?"


This is a pretty basic question. I would suggest you read just about any poker book. The ToP sections about odds would give you a complete answer.


But, in short you want to look at the price you are getting. You have 8 (straight) or 9 (flush) outs. There are 4 cards on the board and 2 in your hand leaving 46 unaccounted for. So you need better then ~5:1 to continue. If you are last to act its then its an easy calc. If there are people behind you then you need to consider the chance they will raise. In any case in a pot that was raised on the flop and in most of the games I've played in its likely you are getting a good price.


One question is why you getting aggressive with your draws on the flop? Its sometimes correct to raise and sometimes its not.


FWIW if you have 8 outs with 47 cards to come then you expect to see 39 bricks for every 8 good cards. For everytime you get there on the turn expect almost 5 times that you don't get a good card. Thats better then the 10% you preceive.

as long as you are getting 4 to 1 you should be calling on the turn. You actually could get away with less since you are likely to get called by another hand on the river.

Basically, you should rarely be folding straight or flush draws.


Kris

Goat is right. Whoever chastised you for calling on the turn with the nut flush draw has no idea what he/she is talking about. Unless, of course, the board was KKQQ or something.

BTW...all straight draws are not created equal. Generally, only call with straight draws that are open-ended (such as JTQK {assuming you have two of these}--where 9 or A make a straight). And beware the boards that already scream flush or that are paired b/c their may be cards that make the straight AND make somebody else a better hand.


But most likely, anybody chastising you in this scenario for "not having enough odds" is full of it.


Mojay

Everyone's right, the advice you got was bad.


The more difficult question is whether you should raise, call or fold to a bet on the river if you had spiked an ace, and this is the first thing that should come to your mind when you saw the turn bet. In most LL games, a bet on the turn into an aggressor by a player that check-called the flop or bet-called-the-flop-raise is a reliable indicator of strength, and a follow-up bet on the river after an ace lands more reliable still. A sudden bet into the aggressor on the river, however, can mean a wider range of hands unless your opponent is either very good or fairly straightforward.