10/20.. pair and flush draw

[greg nice]

villian is fairly loose preflop

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 10 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Hero ($3097)
Button ($3671)
SB ($2134.89)
BB ($2000)
UTG ($1850)
UTG+1 ($1920)
UTG+2 ($1950)
MP1 ($7134.5)
MP2 ($798.5)
MP3 ($3482)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $10.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to $40</font>, MP2 calls $40, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $40, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>.

Flop: ($150) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets $65</font>, MP2 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $225</font>, MP1 calls $160.

Turn: ($600) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $450</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to $900</font>, Hero calls $450.

River: ($2400) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets $900</font>, Hero calls $900.

Final Pot: $4200

[fsuplayer]

you've announced your hand on the turn, and got minraised and bet into big on the river.

pack it up and head home on the river.

[AZK]

A /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/heart.gif really?

[fsuplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
A /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/heart.gif really?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
villian is fairly loose preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

we can be just a bit wider on range of hands that have hearts, right? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[greg nice]

its a minraise, so AKh is unlikely.

i hemmed and hawed on that river. i think its an easy fold in retrospect.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
you've announced your hand on the turn, and got minraised and bet into big on the river. pack it up and head home on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

6-max table I push to the turn min raise 100% of the time. He got a great flop for his hand and I want to play a big pot here and see it through. Since this is 6-max villain could have a set or be incorrectly pushing an overpair with a heart. If he has the bigger flush, well that sucks but I just press rebuy. If some of you don't agree with this, then you should fold to the min raise on the turn in the first place since you have allowed your opponent to take control of the hand insuring that he does in fact bet into you big come the river putting the tough decision on you. Especially if you allow that 4th heart to come off cheaper by just calling that min raise, you will feel like a complete donkey.

[Bet_to_Nguyen]

Wouldn't 77 and 88 use this line also, and possibly AhAx?

[greg nice]

i dont know why these hands keep saying 6max, but its 10/20 full ring.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't 77 and 88 use this line also, and possibly AhAx?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you mean on the part of the villain yes he would probably play it like he did with the min raise.

[-Skeme-]

I don't think A/images/graemlins/heart.gif does this, I guess a set could, but I doubt it.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
i dont know why these hands keep saying 6max, but its 10/20 full ring.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry if I didn't read them correctly. In a full ring game I would always give more credit to the possibility of a higher flush being out, but primarily to a 3rd player and not the preflop raiser. Hero's hand and the flop he got is a prime situation to double up off someone who will go broke with AA here, and I still push to the min raise. He beats you he beats you and you just rebuy. Regardless, like I said before, it is still push or fold on the turn.

[greg nice]

well i totally discounted AAh due to his minraise preflop.

he did have A5h and i lost /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[BluffTHIS!]

Well like I said that sucks but just rebuy. It's just unfortunate that he had that hand, the nut flush draw plus a gutshot. Nonetheless, as I said in the other posts, there are too many possibiities for him to have where you don't want to second guess yourself on the river, making the correct turn play either raise or fold.

[freemoney]

lol no...stop giving this advice its really bad and hero is too deep for this to be right.

[muzungu]

really?

I dunno where you get "bet into big", he is getting 900:3300 on the river.

If hero needs to fold this, I need to rethink when/where i bluff.

Also, couldn't villain be making a "oops, i should have reraised the flop, so I guess I'll raise now" raise with a set/straight or be semibluffing with AxAh, and then be making a blocking bet on the river? I know you all you 2+2ers loooooooove those blocking bets.

I mean, he has you beat here a vast majority of the time, but you only need to be good &lt;25% of the time here. I guess I am just a calling station.

-muz

[thabadguy]

I cannot find a fold here really, a low flush with no 4th heart against a loose pf raiser, even tho the river does look like a value bet.
I would push/fold turn UNLESS the villain is hyperaggro, then im gonna give him another chance to bet into me on river
I used to think that folding here would be the right choice, but I lost the biggest pot of my life when i took the exact same line as a stone bluff and got called by a low flush, on a 3 flush board.
If he has a bigger flush, pay him off.

[piki]

I push the turn.

This is why I dont play shorthanded

[piki]

[ QUOTE ]
well i totally discounted AAh due to his minraise preflop.

he did have A5h and i lost /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
dem teh breaks. How did you do after you rebought?

[piki]

next time you have any hand and he raises preflop double him.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
lol no...stop giving this advice its really bad and hero is too deep for this to be right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please note that although I would push I said folding was an option too. What is not an option here is wasting money on a CALL and then either wasting more on the river if you think you are beat by calling that, or by folding there when you could have done it on the turn.

[captZEEbo1]

why do you I keep hearing EASY fold when you are getting 4:1 on your money with a strong hand? It may be a FOLDABLE hand, but surely it cannot be an easy fold.

[fsuplayer]

you guys who think villian is taking this line with a hand we beat are nuts.

this isnt 2/4. and many players who are "too loose" pf at this level, play very well postflop.

hero had a sign on his head saying i have a straight and/or flush, and a guy who minraised pf (which is often done with suited cards), says "i have that beat".
a turn fold is prob. best here, but not dumping this on the river is a very costly play, as hero found out.

[ML4L]

[ QUOTE ]
you guys who think villian is taking this line with a hand we beat are nuts.

this isnt 2/4. and many players who are "too loose" pf at this level, play very well postflop.

hero had a sign on his head saying i have a straight and/or flush, and a guy who minraised pf (which is often done with suited cards), says "i have that beat".
a turn fold is prob. best here, but not dumping this on the river is a very costly play, as hero found out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was talking to greg about this last night. Everyone thinks that the river call is the big mistake. I have absolutely no problem with the river call. If you are going to call the turn, folding to that river action is insane. If you call the turn, you are presuming that he could have a straight/set/etc. a chunk of the time. That river bet is EXACTLY the kind of bet (i.e. "blocking") that those hands would make on the river. I certainly wouldn't fold the river here if I called the turn.

The real problem, as fsu points out, is on the turn. That's the time to let it go if you're going to do it. You have no real redraw is beaten. If your hand doesn't fare well against his range after the min-raise, easy fold.

It comes down to hand reading. I told greg last night, what do people generally min-raise with? Answer is: suited aces, suited connectors, pocket pairs. Given that, we are in a lot of trouble when he check-raises the turn. He could have a set, but we have to discount that somewhat based on the flop action.

Taking a step further back, when you consider his range of hands, checking behind on the turn to exercise pot control after hitting the flush starts to look better and better. Lead for half-pot and a call of the raise on the flop looks a lot like a bigger flush draw for Villain.

ML4L

[turnipmonster]

I agree 100% with this, was thinking the same thing. if you're going to call the turn I think it's probably a bad play NOT to call the river unless we realize on the river we made a mistake in calling the turn.

[ML4L]

[ QUOTE ]
unless we realize on the river we made a mistake in calling the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I was going to mention: nothing precludes you from doing a 180 and changing your mind on the river. If you decide you're beat, nothing you can do about the $450 at that point; might as well save $900.

But, again, I can't imagine changing my mind in an online game if I did call the turn, because $900 is exactly the type of bet that I would be expecting to see... In a live game, maybe you can pick up a tell that lets you get away...

Mike