typical situation #852512

[joker122]

a made up hand:

i raise JJ UTG and get cold called by an unknown button, blinds fold. the flop is K92 and i of course bet, and button calls.

say the turn is an unimportant card. lately, i've been check calling the turn and check calling the river instead of my usual line of betting the turn (folding to a raise), and check-calling the river. i'm even doing it on drawy boards (to a certain extent). i'm kind of surprised that i didn't always play this type of hand this way. i know it's not the tight/aggro style that is supposedly correlated with winning play, but it seems better. anyone feel strongly one way or the other here?

[Fianchetto]

I've been playing them that way too. I really want to take those hands to showdown, and you are guaranteed to get there for 2 bets. You may induce a bluff, or get him to bet middle pair for what he thinks is value.

I also don't want to get pushed off the best hand if my opponent makes the raise turn/free showdown play with something like middle pair.

[Fabian]

If you bet the turn and was called, you'd check the river?

[Stormwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
a made up hand:

i raise JJ UTG and get cold called by an unknown button, blinds fold. the flop is K92 and i of course bet, and button calls.

say the turn is an unimportant card. lately, i've been check calling the turn and check calling the river instead of my usual line of betting the turn (folding to a raise), and check-calling the river. i'm even doing it on drawy boards (to a certain extent). i'm kind of surprised that i didn't always play this type of hand this way. i know it's not the tight/aggro style that is supposedly correlated with winning play, but it seems better. anyone feel strongly one way or the other here?

[/ QUOTE ]

why not check-call turn and bet the river?if he didnt pop you on the flop with a king its unlikely he will on the river and you wont let him check-behind a worse hand

[Nate tha' Great]

Sucky sucky sucky. The time to check the turn is when a raise would make you uncomfortable because you have outs or because you think the opponent is capable of raising with a worse hand. Here you can easily fold to a raise against a typical opponent, and you bet to collect value and protect the likely best hand.

[Girchuck]

If the board contains draws and your opponent does not know how to semibluff, you may want to bet JJ most of the time on the turn.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
Sucky sucky sucky. The time to check the turn is when a raise would make you uncomfortable because you have outs or because you think the opponent is capable of raising with a worse hand. Here you can easily fold to a raise against a typical opponent, and you bet to collect value and protect the likely best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

what about the amount of bluffs this will induce with hands that would have folded (correctly) to a turn bet? (i think this is quite a significant gain when it happens, and in a HU pot it happens quite frequently).

and about missing value/protecting: alot of these hands that would have called a bet will bet for me.

what about immunity from a bluff raise?

[tongni]

Why not bet the turn and bet the river?

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
If you bet the turn and was called, you'd check the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

against an unknown...i don't know. when i'm running good i bet, and i make other bets on the thin side like this, and so i've equated betting with playing well, which is silly.

it seems like the more i play the more i realize (perhaps mistakenly) the power of inducing bluffs.

what would you do, and why?

[joker122]

pretty much sums up my thoughts.

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]
Sucky sucky sucky. The time to check the turn is when a raise would make you uncomfortable because you have outs or because you think the opponent is capable of raising with a worse hand. Here you can easily fold to a raise against a typical opponent, and you bet to collect value and protect the likely best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Nate,

do you find yourself checking the river in this kind of spot often? if you do, what other hands do you checkraise to balance it?

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
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Sucky sucky sucky. The time to check the turn is when a raise would make you uncomfortable because you have outs or because you think the opponent is capable of raising with a worse hand. Here you can easily fold to a raise against a typical opponent, and you bet to collect value and protect the likely best hand.

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Hey Nate,

do you find yourself checking the river in this kind of spot often? if you do, what other hands do you checkraise to balance it?

[/ QUOTE ]

what exactly would you be trying to balance?

[DMBFan23]

if he's going to bet for value more often when you check, then you get to check raise more. if he's not, then you can check hands like 66 for free showdowns. I'm just thinking out loud about how our river play on this hand would affect our general river strategy

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
what about the amount of bluffs this will induce with hands that would have folded (correctly) to a turn bet? (i think this is quite a significant gain when it happens, and in a HU pot it happens quite frequently).

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, let's think about what sort of hands your opponent is likely to have. Apart from a king, the obvious candidates are a gutshot and some kind of middle pair.

Say your opponent has A9 or T9s here. If you bet, a loose passive opponent, the sort who likes to cold call first one in, is probably calling you down anyway with this hand.

If you check, there's a good chance that one of two things happens: either he checks the turn and takes a free card / cheap showdown on the river, or he bets the turn but checks behind on the river unless he improves. So you'll often miss a bet against middle pair.

Now consider what happens if your opponent has a gutshot. The hands that have gutshots on this board are QJ (8 combos), QT (16 combos) and JT (8 combos). Note that most of the time that your opponent has a gutshot, he'll also have an overcard out against your hand, giving him a 7-outer.

You'd actually prefer that the oppoenent fold a 7-outer, which he'll often do as he won't recognize his Q outs as being good. The worst thing is if you check and he checks behind - now you've allowed him to draw completely free. But even if you check and he bets, that's not much of a victory for you, since he would have had the odds to draw anyway. Of course, if he bets both the turn *and* the river, you're happy about that. But most opponents have a great deal of difficulty bluffing the two big streets in a row in this spot, especially since the check-call on the turn indicates a high likelihood that you're calling down.

[ QUOTE ]
what about immunity from a bluff raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

If the opponent is both aggressive and tricky, then you have some additional options to consider, including both checking the turn here and betting and calling down a raise. There's no indication in the original problem that the opponent falls into this category, and against a typical player you're just going to be missing too many bets.

[joker122]

all good points, but when i say induce a bluff i mean worse hands than what you're giving credit for, as in ace high, or worse, like one overcard (although ace high and one overcard are the same thing in the example i offered). and from my experience, absurdly loose peels on the flop are quite common from typical players. i'm hoping to catch a bet from a hand with 2-3 outs that would have folded. what you an i are essentially arguing is the range of hands players will call a flop bet with. i think you give them far too much credit.

[Dov]

My initial reaction to this hand is that you are in the way ahead, way behind position here. If that's true, then I like the check call on both the turn and river.

However, I think Nate has made some great points.

Reconciling everything, I think the way I play this against and unknown is to Bet the turn (call a raise), and check call the river no matter what.

After this, at least I will have a read.

The reasoning is as follows:

There are only 3 more kings. It is possible for the opponent to have one, but not especially likely.

A typical player likes to put you on a hand he can beat. So if he doesn't respect your raise anyway - or is a decent player trying to get a read on you - he may raise the turn with any pair, just to see what you do.

I've seen a lot of people try to push me off of a pair with a big ace that missed the flop with a turn raise because they know they can't win the showdown and suspect that you don't have a K. If they bluff raise without the K, or semi-bluff and whiff on the river, you gain an extra bet. (2 if they bluff the river too) I think this will happen much more often than getting raised by the real K.

If they are drawing, they don't draw for free, as you bet the turn. If they have a K, then they will get you for one more bet when you call the raise.

Many players will put you initially on AK when you raise, call the flop with something like A9 hoping to spike 2 pair or a set, prepared to fold the turn if they miss. If you check the turn, they revise their read to put you on something that they can beat - like Q9 or AQ or AJ.

Then they bet after you check, thinking that they have you beat.

When you check call the river, they think you are calling down with A high because they would do the same thing with the hand they are putting you on.

In summary, I like the line of Bet the turn, call the raise, check call the river.

I think that's how you can make the most in the long run with this hand in this game.

[J.R.]

The typical players who peel the flop as lightly as you posit aren't looking to float the turn. These guys are by and large super loose passive chasers who, as partly evidenced by their super-light flop calls, are also more likely to call a turn bet than bet if you check. IMO they(such thin callers) also aren't as common as you suggest. Don't out-think yourself, just hammer away.

[Fabian]

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If you bet the turn and was called, you'd check the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

against an unknown...i don't know. when i'm running good i bet, and i make other bets on the thin side like this, and so i've equated betting with playing well, which is silly.

it seems like the more i play the more i realize (perhaps mistakenly) the power of inducing bluffs.

what would you do, and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're playing against an unknown, and he cold calls preflop, and he calls the flop, and he calls the turn. Why wouldn't he call the river? Why would he have a king?

What I'm trying to say is that people call down with anything, even more so when they've already called the turn, and your opponent hasn't done anything at all to indicate his hand is better than yours.

Also, about the inducing bluffs part, it's not something to try against loose passive calling stations. However it's a strong play (in moderation) against strong, aggressive, tricky, good players.

[joker122]

i don't know about this. one of the advantages of nate's line (the popular line) is that you can fold to a raise on the turn. if you take that away from them my line is superior hands down.

[J.R.]

[ QUOTE ]
one of the advantages of nate's line (the popular line) is that you can fold to a raise on the turn. if you take that away from them my line is superior hands down.

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no way. you also lose bets against pairs/completed pair draws that would have called down but either 1) won't bluff or 2) won't fire two barrels. You also come up short against drawing hands on the turn that would call but will take the free card. This isn't really debatable for the class of 5-10 players who can and will call this flop with all sorts of fairly worthless hands.

*BTW, if by "you can't fold to a raise" you mean the opponent is semi-bluff raising game theoretic optimal or, as is more common IMO, too much you actually make more when they raise the turn than when you checking to induce bluff. Only if they semi-bluff raise just under game theoretic optimal do you gain check-calling v. them, assuming these same class of players bluff fairly often when you check to them on the turn (because you win 2 when they semi-bluff raise the turn as opposed to one whn checking, assusming they dont fllow thru).

Basically if you have to call them down they probably bluff raise too much, so why would you want them to stop making a bad play?

[joker122]

so against an unknown you call a turn raise and a river bet?

[carsonj]

have you guys never run into people who will call the flop, call the turn, then raise your river bet with their top pair?

i seem to have this happen all the time with my middle pairs that i lead out with

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Reconciling everything, I think the way I play this against and unknown is to Bet the turn (call a raise), and check call the river no matter what.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you usually want to bet the river too. If you bet on the turn and are just called, it becomes even more likely that you are up against some sort of middle-pair hand, which will call if you bet more often than it bets if you check.

I'm more inclined to check and call the river if the board is a little bit more draw-heavy. The K9x board does provide for gutshot draws, but those draws will usually fold on the turn, meaning you're up against some kind of made hand. I may also check and call the river against an opponent who is capable of waiting to the river to raise with a strong hand, but also might occasionally raise with a worse hand (these circumstances are fairly rare).

[ggbman]

Nate covered most of the important points, but you don't want a hand like QJ drawing for free here, and you miss value on lots of hands that will call you down. Pretty standard bet IMO.

[chio]

[ QUOTE ]
Sucky sucky sucky. The time to check the turn is when a raise would make you uncomfortable because you have outs or because you think the opponent is capable of raising with a worse hand. Here you can easily fold to a raise against a typical opponent, and you bet to collect value and protect the likely best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's just the thing - i'm uncomfortable calling down unless opponent is a real maniac, and i'm uncomfortable folding unless i really respect opponent's turn raises. so that just leaves me uncomfortable vs a "typical opponent" here most of the time

i agree with joker here, as opponents seem to bluff raise with worse hands here enough nowadays to render the "bet and fold to a raise vs a typical opponent line" not as effective

and i do find that if i check here, i'm inducing a bluff or bet from a worse hand enough to make up for the times that a hand with 6-7 outs checks behind. i find that most bad opponents will bet here if checked to as a total bluff, with ace high, a gutshot, or some sort of weak pair. they love to think that they're pouncing on weakness

vs a passive opponent, your line is definitely optimal for value and hand protection. there just aren't as many passive players in the 5-10, 10-20 6max, or even 20-40 shorthanded tables at party anymore

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
vs a passive opponent, your line is definitely optimal for value and hand protection. there just aren't as many passive players in the 5-10, 10-20 6max, or even 20-40 shorthanded tables at party anymore

[/ QUOTE ]

this brings up a whole other issue...where did all the passive players go? i constantly find myself one of the more passive players at all my tables. a year ago, i was almost always the most aggressive besides a LAG or two. i don't care what anyone says these games have gotten significantly tougher.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Sucky sucky sucky. The time to check the turn is when a raise would make you uncomfortable because you have outs or because you think the opponent is capable of raising with a worse hand. Here you can easily fold to a raise against a typical opponent, and you bet to collect value and protect the likely best hand.

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I think the only reason it might be an *easy* fold against a typical opponent is because the pot is so small. throw in another cold caller preflop and now you have a nice sized pot and I don't think you can throw it away. I get shown a draw, second pair, or complete air so often there.

I happen to think at 10/20 they have a pretty good bluffing frequency so for me it's a really tough bet to make.

[sthief09]

oh and I should also mention that this is why I spend so much time datamining. I don't like being readless shorthanded.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sucky sucky sucky. The time to check the turn is when a raise would make you uncomfortable because you have outs or because you think the opponent is capable of raising with a worse hand. Here you can easily fold to a raise against a typical opponent, and you bet to collect value and protect the likely best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]


I think the only reason it might be an *easy* fold against a typical opponent is because the pot is so small. throw in another cold caller preflop and now you have a nice sized pot and I don't think you can throw it away. I get shown a draw, second pair, or complete air so often there.

I happen to think at 10/20 they have a pretty good bluffing frequency so for me it's a really tough bet to make.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they're bluffing a lot, I'm still not sure that it isn't just a bet. This is *not* the same situation as when you're last to act on the turn, and facilitating a check-raise costs you 2 extra BB. It's just one extra BB to call down.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sucky sucky sucky. The time to check the turn is when a raise would make you uncomfortable because you have outs or because you think the opponent is capable of raising with a worse hand. Here you can easily fold to a raise against a typical opponent, and you bet to collect value and protect the likely best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]


I think the only reason it might be an *easy* fold against a typical opponent is because the pot is so small. throw in another cold caller preflop and now you have a nice sized pot and I don't think you can throw it away. I get shown a draw, second pair, or complete air so often there.

I happen to think at 10/20 they have a pretty good bluffing frequency so for me it's a really tough bet to make.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they're bluffing a lot, I'm still not sure that it isn't just a bet. This is *not* the same situation as when you're last to act on the turn, and facilitating a check-raise costs you 2 extra BB. It's just one extra BB to call down.

[/ QUOTE ]


lately I've just been lurking when I get a chance, but this thread piqued my interest because I've started checking the turn there a lot out of position because I feel like, at 10/20 6m at least, they ALWAYS bet the turn when I check. then I either lead the river if I think I can avoid getting raised by a better hand or check call again (though admittedly this is where I lose value vs betting both. they'll usually bluff the river but they usually raise when I'm beat, so I do it rarely, and when I'm ahead at least 3/4 of the time the river gets checked through)

[J.R.]

of course not