AQs in BB, common situation

[silkyslim]

First hand at table no reads. Im preflop raiser with a big ace and a card comes higher than my kicker. What do I do?



Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero ????

[topspin]

With a ragged board and only 3 opponents, I think a standard continuation bet is in order. The BDFD helps your case too.

[PuckNPoker]

It depends on reads, if the opponents are weak-tight folders, bet. If they are a bunch of calling stations, check call and see the turn. You've got a bfd,bsd, and an over that could be reverse dominated. The pot is a good size but unless they are the type to fold a pair to 1 bet you really arent gaining anything by betting.

[crownjules]

You have the advantage of being the PF aggressor, so I'd fire one off. Re-evaluate on the turn based on what card falls and how many opponents are left with you.

[silkyslim]

a blank fell on the turn with only CO left after I bet.

[kapw7]

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With a ragged board and only 3 opponents, I think a standard continuation bet is in order. The BDFD helps your case too.

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A continuation bet is mainly a NL play and not against 3 other opponents. Here not a lot of ppl will fold with 10:1 odds. Check-call is fine.

[topspin]

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A continuation bet is mainly a NL play

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I disagree. For example, against 2 opponents I'll fire a bet on the flop 90% of the time.

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and not against 3 other opponents

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3 opponents is borderline for me. Against 4 I'll check-call it. If the board were more coordinated, I'd also check. On a ragged flop like this, I'll bet.

[crownjules]

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a blank fell on the turn with only CO left after I bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

HU with a turn blank, I'll fire away again with my fold equity. If he calls, I'd say it's safe to assume CO is holding Kx. Reads would help there (does CO call down with nothing, or only when he has a hand). Barring anything short of an ace on the river, I'd check/fold.

[kapw7]

In NL you can adjust the odds of the other players calling you. So when you bet you either expect to take the pot b/c you don't give odds to weak draws etc or expect to get info and avoid losing more money in later streets. If you get called you know that you are probably beat. Again you rarely do it against 3 players.

In this example you have 3 opponents with 10:1 odds to call. It is unlikely that you'll win the pot and if they call, you will have no info at all.
What do you think a bet would achieve here?

[topspin]

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In this example you have 3 opponents with 10:1 odds to call. It is unlikely that you'll win the pot and if they call, you will have no info at all.
What do you think a bet would achieve here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think (1) I have the best hand some amount of the time, (2) small pocket pairs (which are better than my hand) will fold this flop much of the time, and (3) where did you get the idea that this was a bet for information, and how is check-call giving you more information?

[kapw7]

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In this example you have 3 opponents with 10:1 odds to call. It is unlikely that you'll win the pot and if they call, you will have no info at all.
What do you think a bet would achieve here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think (1) I have the best hand some amount of the time, (2) small pocket pairs (which are better than my hand) will fold this flop much of the time, and (3) where did you get the idea that this was a bet for information, and how is check-call giving you more information?

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(1) We only have A-high (2) maybe, but flopped lower pairs will not fold (3) check-calling prevents us from getting raised by a pair of kings (even hands like A8) that will correctly try to protect their hands. Also it allows us to fold if there is a bet and reraise. Our position is not the best (it's good for a bluff bet but not here)

[crownjules]

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(1) We only have A-high (2) maybe, but flopped lower pairs will not fold (3) check-calling prevents us from getting raised by a pair of kings (even hands like A8) that will correctly try to protect their hands. Also it allows us to fold if there is a bet and reraise. Our position is not the best (it's good for a bluff bet but not here)

[/ QUOTE ]

On point two...

I disagree. A king is as scary to us as it is to a lower pair, probably even scarier. You have a good chance of folding a lower pair out by betting, be it PP or paired with the board.

[hbaromega]

check/fold

i think betting out is better than calling if you have any fold equity. It would be better if the field was smaller.

[benkath1]

Bet

[Aaron W.]

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In this example you have 3 opponents with 10:1 odds to call. It is unlikely that you'll win the pot and if they call, you will have no info at all.
What do you think a bet would achieve here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think (1) I have the best hand some amount of the time, (2) small pocket pairs (which are better than my hand) will fold this flop much of the time, and (3) where did you get the idea that this was a bet for information, and how is check-call giving you more information?

[/ QUOTE ]

(1) We only have A-high (2) maybe, but flopped lower pairs will not fold (3) check-calling prevents us from getting raised by a pair of kings (even hands like A8) that will correctly try to protect their hands. Also it allows us to fold if there is a bet and reraise. Our position is not the best (it's good for a bluff bet but not here)

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(1) 3 opponents, K85 drawless board, weak limpers from two off the button, I think ace-high has a moderate chance of being best.

(2) It's okay if they don't fold if they have that lower pair. But it's not okay for them to take a free card when the don't have a lower pair.

(3) I would be surprised if A8 raises to "protect his hand". A8 is not a hand needing protection in this spot. A king might raise, and we'll call the raise, but there's no reason at all to think that a king is even out there in the first place.

(4) The liklihood of a bet and a raise if we check is very small. There are only three other players in the pot. You're preparing yourself for something that isn't going to happen.

[kapw7]

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(1) We only have A-high (2) maybe, but flopped lower pairs will not fold (3) check-calling prevents us from getting raised by a pair of kings (even hands like A8) that will correctly try to protect their hands. Also it allows us to fold if there is a bet and reraise. Our position is not the best (it's good for a bluff bet but not here)

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On point two...

I disagree. A king is as scary to us as it is to a lower pair, probably even scarier. You have a good chance of folding a lower pair out by betting, be it PP or paired with the board.

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Most flopped pairs still have 4-5 outs. I don't think they will fold a lot of times. At 0.5/1 I can see a lot of PP's calling as well (I would call).

[kapw7]

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(1) 3 opponents, K85 drawless board, weak limpers from two off the button, I think ace-high has a moderate chance of being best.

(2) It's okay if they don't fold if they have that lower pair. But it's not okay for them to take a free card when the don't have a lower pair.

(3) I would be surprised if A8 raises to "protect his hand". A8 is not a hand needing protection in this spot. A king might raise, and we'll call the raise, but there's no reason at all to think that a king is even out there in the first place.

(4) The liklihood of a bet and a raise if we check is very small. There are only three other players in the pot. You're preparing yourself for something that isn't going to happen.

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(1) And a less than moderate chance to hold (unimproved) until the end.

(2) I don't worry about giving a free card. It's not that we have a pair of Kings or AA etc. I see our hand more like a drawing hand.

(3) I would raise every time with A8/A5 even Q8

(4) It's a big pot and ppl will try to protect it. It's more likely than you think even at 0.5/1

[scotty34]

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a blank fell on the turn with only CO left after I bet.

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HU with a turn blank, I'll fire away again with my fold equity. If he calls, I'd say it's safe to assume CO is holding Kx. Reads would help there (does CO call down with nothing, or only when he has a hand). Barring anything short of an ace on the river, I'd check/fold.

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I would bet an A and check-call a Q. How do you figure a guy calling a bet on the flop and turn automatically has Kx? Is a 5, an 8, a PP, or 67 not reasonable? Especially given that this is the micros. I've seen people holding hands like 97 and even worse in these situations.

[PuckNPoker]

Since this is a "no reads" situation, this question is pretty hard to answer. We cant really calculate our fold equity because we cant define our opponents.

There is 3 situations:
1) Opponents will call down with any pair to the river, unbluffable.
2) Opponent will call down to the river with any pair and fold UI at the river.
3) Opponent has 67, or some random hand and is just hoping to hit a pair and hopes it is good. And will fold on the river UI.

The answer to the OP question is defining those 3 scenarios in a suitable fashion according to his play level. If its a no foldem/holdem game BET BET BET is a bad line.

67% of the time people miss the flop, that means across 3 opponents one of them hit the flop 30% of the time.. and he got called by 1 person. I'm betting that guy hit something, what he will do with it is just anyones guess at this point.

[topspin]

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HU with a turn blank, I'll fire away again with my fold equity. If he calls, I'd say it's safe to assume CO is holding Kx.

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I would bet an A and check-call a Q. How do you figure a guy calling a bet on the flop and turn automatically has Kx? Is a 5, an 8, a PP, or 67 not reasonable? Especially given that this is the micros. I've seen people holding hands like 97 and even worse in these situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

If we had position I'd check through this turn, given that the board is essentially draw-free. Given that we're not in position to take a free card and we have to call a bet if we check, I'd lean towards firing again HU on the turn hoping I had some fold equity. The lack of draws does make it more likely villain has some piece of the board, and I'm not sure I can fold if raised, so it's close.

Having said that:

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $0.75.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG calls $0.50 (All-In).

Flop: (10 SB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players, 1 all-in)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, BB folds.

Turn: (6 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 1 all-in)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button folds.

River: (7 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: 7 BB

Results:
UTG has Ac 2s (high card, ace).
Hero has Jc Ah (high card, ace).
Outcome: Hero wins 6 BB.

[Aaron W.]

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(1) 3 opponents, K85 drawless board, weak limpers from two off the button, I think ace-high has a moderate chance of being best.

(2) It's okay if they don't fold if they have that lower pair. But it's not okay for them to take a free card when the don't have a lower pair.

(3) I would be surprised if A8 raises to "protect his hand". A8 is not a hand needing protection in this spot. A king might raise, and we'll call the raise, but there's no reason at all to think that a king is even out there in the first place.

(4) The liklihood of a bet and a raise if we check is very small. There are only three other players in the pot. You're preparing yourself for something that isn't going to happen.

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(1) And a less than moderate chance to hold (unimproved) until the end.

(2) I don't worry about giving a free card. It's not that we have a pair of Kings or AA etc. I see our hand more like a drawing hand.

(3) I would raise every time with A8/A5 even Q8

(4) It's a big pot and ppl will try to protect it. It's more likely than you think even at 0.5/1

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(1) Especially if you don't knock out those hands which are drawing to six outs against you when you *ARE* ahead. That's why a bet now, while it's reasonable to think you have the best hand, is important.

(2) You underestimate ace-high on this flop. If it had two or three mid-range cards, say KJ5 or QJ9, then you are more likely drawing.

(3) *YOU* might raise a pair of 8s. But we're not talking about what you *YOU* would do. We're looking at what the generic player would do. If the generic player played like you, the game would be very different. Generic players are considered to be relatively passive, against preflop raisers. That means that second pair or worse probably isn't raising.

(4) Again, I think you overestimate the aggressiveness of a generic player. You also must consider that the there are only THREE players against you, all of whom who limped preflop. One already checked to you. So there are only a couple ways it's coming back to you for two bets after you check:

- CO bets, button raises
- CO bets, SB check-raises
- Button bets, SB check-raises

You also need to consider the types of hands that players have, and how they might play it. Limps from CO and button generally mean weaker hands. Consider a few offsuit hands with a broadway card in it and some suited middle things. Most of those hands aren't strong enough to raise here (middle pair, middle kicker usually don't get raised), so a raise is not likely. A check-raise from SB (who has a larger range of hands) will likely be some sort of two pair hand or a set, and seeing flopped two pair hands or a set is MUBS. Coming back for two bets simply isn't very likely (not to say that it won't happen, but this is the rare case).

[kapw7]

Let's agree that we disagree. My experience in these games is that ppl don't fold that easily with large pots. I prefer in these situations to bet the turn which is more expensive but more effective as well.

I do agree that it is not very likely that it will come 2 bets back to us when we check but it is not impossible so I think it's a small factor that turns the balance for me to "check".