"I had to plunk him" (2 baseball questions)

[CallMeIshmael]

Im an big fan, but not to the degree of many others posters here. So, I've come to you guys for help:

(partly inspired by the Boston/St. Louis game)

1. When a team is losing badly, is there any point to the plunk other than frustration? I mean, I can see why it has to happen on occasion. But, it seems that in games like that one yesterday, it's a prettly childish thing to do, just because they are owning you.

2. What percentage of all plunks are accidental, iyo?

[DemonDeac]

thats oldschool, my friend. whenever someone gets thrown at, its usually with just-cause. unwritten rules in baseball. if you dont know them and u play the game, LEARN EM.


as to percentage, id say 80% are accidental

[mmbt0ne]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
1. When a team is losing badly, is there any point to the plunk other than frustration? I mean, I can see why it has to happen on occasion. But, it seems that in games like that one yesterday, it's a prettly childish thing to do, just because they are owning you.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. They had a discussion about this on Mike&amp;Mike this morning. Retaliating for someone doing their job better than you is stupid. If the guy went in spikes up, or tried to show up your team, that's one thing. But hitting a guy because he's hit 2 homers, or because you're losing it ridiculous.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
2. What percentage of all plunks are accidental, iyo?

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on the pitcher. From a John Rocker, maybe 50+ percent. From Greg Maddux, zero.

[drudman]

I'm pretty sure you have it backwards, the Cards pitcher plunked Youkilis. The Cards were winning big.

But only about 10% of plunks are intentional.

[tbach24]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure you have it backwards, the Cards pitcher plunked Youkilis. The Cards were winning big.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's more because he was going to walk anyways. Youk is a pimp.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure you have it backwards, the Cards pitcher plunked Youkilis. The Cards were winning big.


[/ QUOTE ]

From MLB.com:

HBP: Walker (by Halama), Grudzielanek (by Mantei), Walker (by Mantei), Varitek (by Reyes), Youkilis (by Reyes).

The first 3 plunks were Boston hitting St. Louis players.

The one you speak of was a retaliation.

[RacersEdge]

The Braves/Angels showed a more legit example of needing to send a message to a team when Ramirez threw BEHIND Erstad because he took a cheap shot at Estrada.

I thought it was perfect - message sent and no one got hurt.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
But hitting a guy because he's hit 2 homers, or because you're losing it ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's more to it than retaliation. Plunking is an intimidation tactic. Don't let him settle into the box. Don't let him get comfortable.

[mmbt0ne]

Or, you could just not let him hit 2 home runs off you. Instead, he did, and now you're being a little bitch.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
Or, you could just not let him hit 2 home runs off you. Instead, he did, and now you're being a little bitch.

[/ QUOTE ]

So they should let him hit a 3rd one? I'd say the players whining about it are the little bitches. Play the game hard and don't be a whiney little baby.

[tdarko]

last night i got owned and i started plunking guys, its sends a message more than anything that you aren't going to just quit out there, basically i was going to get mine is some way...call it childish all you want but it sets a tone for the next time you face those guys and you can argue against it all you want but it works.

another thing it does is it keeps the hitters from taking "ghetto" "monster" hacks, when everyone is comfortable up there sometimes you need to drill a couple guys to make the rest uncomfortable, there are tons of reasons for hitting guys.

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Or, you could just not let him hit 2 home runs off you. Instead, he did, and now you're being a little bitch.

[/ QUOTE ]

So they should let him hit a 3rd one? I'd say the players whining about it are the little bitches. Play the game hard and don't be a whiney little baby.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or maybe you should learn how to pitch and not throw fat ones down the middle. Why do you assume that because a guy hits 2 HR, he's going to hit a third? All plunking him does is add a baserunner. Get him out.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
Or maybe you should learn how to pitch and not throw fat ones down the middle. Why do you assume that because a guy hits 2 HR, he's going to hit a third? All plunking him does is add a baserunner. Get him out.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't assume he's gonna hit a third, but plunking is a legitimate tactic. And you're probably not going to actually plunk him. He's usually gonna move and you've shaken him up a little w/o putting him on base. And maybe the next guy doesn't dig in so much.

[Jack of Arcades]

Most guys now are all too happy to take one off the shoulder. Guys like Biggio made a career out of it.

[tdarko]

[ QUOTE ]
Guys like Biggio made a career out of it.

[/ QUOTE ]
biggio did not make is career from from getting beaned, i expect more from you jack.

[Jack of Arcades]

Whatever you say, a very large bulk of Biggio's value comes from the fact that he's been hit 262 times in his major league career. If he never got hit by a pitch, his OBP would be 25 points lower.

Put it this way: if he never got HBP, I would not put him in the HOF.

[tdarko]

i don't understand why he is a HOF'er, if anything he is MAYBE a borderline last ballot guy because of longevity and because he was an all-star at three different positions but because he got beaned two hundred something times to make his numbers still marginal is a bad arguement.

bags made his name for his versatility.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't understand why he is a HOF'er, if anything he is MAYBE a borderline last ballot guy because of longevity and because he was an all-star at three different positions...

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

[ThisHo]

[ QUOTE ]
Put it this way: if he never got HBP, I would not put him in the HOF.

[/ QUOTE ]

we're putting Biggio in the Hall? At the risk of threadjacking, I'd like to see the argument for that.

On topic : plunking a guy in the small of the back or between the shoulder blades is perfectly acceptable in some situations. If I'm a big league pither and Barry Bonds hit a homer off me and did his little spin thingy on his way to 1B and took an inordinant amount of time getting around the bases as he likes to do, I'd drill him the next time up. If a guy hits 2 homers off me but does nothing to show me up, then I tip my hat (figuratively) and try to get him out the next time I see him. Hitting 2 bombs off a pitcher isn't cause to plunk a guy. Showing a pitcher up (i.e. Sammy's "Home Run Hop" or Barry's Spin or Barry's Stare in admiration from home plate) is ABSOLUTELY just cause for a beaning. Gibson/Feller/Drysdale used to do it, but back then no one charged the mound; guys back then understood that if you showed a pitcher up, you were gonna get beaned.

Drilling a guy in the head is NEVER acceptable.
And whoever said that Maddux has a 100% intentional plunking rate is more than likely right on the money.

ThisHo

[Voltron87]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Put it this way: if he never got HBP, I would not put him in the HOF.

[/ QUOTE ]

we're putting Biggio in the Hall? At the risk of threadjacking, I'd like to see the argument for that.

On topic : plunking a guy in the small of the back or between the shoulder blades is perfectly acceptable in some situations. If I'm a big league pither and Barry Bonds hit a homer off me and did his little spin thingy on his way to 1B and took an inordinant amount of time getting around the bases as he likes to do, I'd drill him the next time up. If a guy hits 2 homers off me but does nothing to show me up, then I tip my hat (figuratively) and try to get him out the next time I see him. Hitting 2 bombs off a pitcher isn't cause to plunk a guy. Showing a pitcher up (i.e. Sammy's "Home Run Hop" or Barry's Spin or Barry's Stare in admiration from home plate) is ABSOLUTELY just cause for a beaning. Gibson/Feller/Drysdale used to do it, but back then no one charged the mound; guys back then understood that if you showed a pitcher up, you were gonna get beaned.

Drilling a guy in the head is NEVER acceptable.
And whoever said that Maddux has a 100% intentional plunking rate is more than likely right on the money.

ThisHo

[/ QUOTE ]

thisho= right.

[hoopsie44]

My favorite plunk was when Robin Ventura charged the mound after Nolan Ryan hit him and Ryan proceeded to beat the crap out of him.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
On topic : plunking a guy in the small of the back or between the shoulder blades is perfectly acceptable in some situations. If I'm a big league pither and Barry Bonds hit a homer off me and did his little spin thingy on his way to 1B and took an inordinant amount of time getting around the bases as he likes to do, I'd drill him the next time up.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm throwing my first pitch at Bonds every time he comes up. Not because I like or dislike him, but I'm not letting him dig in. The worst that happens is I hit him and he's on first.

[ QUOTE ]
Hitting 2 bombs off a pitcher isn't cause to plunk a guy.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're missing the point. There are reasons to throw at him other than "cause".

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
My favorite plunk was when Robin Ventura charged the mound after Nolan Ryan hit him and Ryan proceeded to beat the crap out of him.

[/ QUOTE ]
Definitely. I'm also a big fan of the Unit's near-plunking of Kruk in the All-Star Game.

[Jack of Arcades]

I think that, once you get past the top 5 2B (Morgan, Collins, Lajoie, Hornsby, Alomar), there are around 7 2B that are all near each other in value - Sandberg, Grich, Frisch, Gehringer, Biggio, Whitaker, and Carew. Four of these are in the hall, 3 aren't, but there's no reason to really put in Carew or Gehringer over Whitaker or Biggio...

So my argument is that Biggio is just as good as guys like Sandberg and Carew, who are considered legit hall of Famers.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm throwing my first pitch at Bonds every time he comes up. Not because I like or dislike him, but I'm not letting him dig in. The worst that happens is I hit him and he's on first.

[/ QUOTE ]
The problem here is he's not afraid to get hit because he's got [censored] body armor on. That [censored] should be banned. I'm sick of guys wearing this [censored] and hanging out over the plate like they don't care because they don't have to worry about getting hit.

[tdarko]

me too! cause that [censored] hurts when they hit it back at us a 115 mph without any gear on!

[ThisHo]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm throwing my first pitch at Bonds every time he comes up. Not because I like or dislike him, but I'm not letting him dig in. The worst that happens is I hit him and he's on first.


Quote:
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Hitting 2 bombs off a pitcher isn't cause to plunk a guy.


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You're missing the point. There are reasons to throw at him other than "cause".

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll agree with your BBonds point. He hangs over the plate AND dives into the pitch. You've got to run it up and in on him (and this is where it starts to get dangerous because if you're are little too "up" then you are headhunting and that's no good, even if it is Barry Bonds). Totally agree.

Your 2nd point about "other reasons" is moderately valid. You want to keep him uncomfortable in the box, you want to intimidate the rest of the lineup, etc etc etc. I don't know what the score was at the time of the plunkings, but if its out of hand then save it for another time. I'm not saying you're wrong here, I just disagree.

ThisHo

[Jack of Arcades]

Body Armor is about the last reason for this.

Two bigger reasons are thin-handled bats allowing players to whip the bats around quicker and luminum bats in amateur ball teaching players that they can hit outside pitches.

Body Armor is just something of convenenince that came about AFTER people started crowding the plate.

[sublime]

HBP: Walker (by Halama), Grudzielanek (by Mantei), Walker (by Mantei), Varitek (by Reyes), Youkilis (by Reyes).

thats not the correct order

[hoopsie44]

Abolish the DH rule and this thread becomes even more trivial.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
Abolish the DH rule and this thread becomes even more trivial.

[/ QUOTE ]
Who's been watching Pedro? How's his plunk and high-inside rate this year?

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
Body Armor is just something of convenenince that came about AFTER people started crowding the plate.

[/ QUOTE ]
This may be true, but it's certainly not helping. It's my opinion that it magnifies the problem.

[wayabvpar]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll agree with your BBonds point. He hangs over the plate AND dives into the pitch. You've got to run it up and in on him (and this is where it starts to get dangerous because if you're are little too "up" then you are headhunting and that's no good, even if it is Barry Bonds). Totally agree.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is the problem- anything inside off the plate and more than waist high is probably going to hit Bonds in his giant steroid-inflated head.

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
Abolish the DH rule and this thread becomes even more trivial.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because it's not like Roger hit more batters last year than than he did that year before or anything.

[hoopsie44]

I'm not sure. Did he hit more or less after going to Houston?

[sublime]

Abolish the DH rule and this thread becomes even more trivial.

the NL should have a DH, Wathcing the pitcher AB is awful.

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Abolish the DH rule and this thread becomes even more trivial.

[/ QUOTE ]
Who's been watching Pedro? How's his plunk and high-inside rate this year?

[/ QUOTE ]

He's only hit one batter this year, but he hit plenty in Montreal.

[M2d]

[ QUOTE ]
Who's been watching Pedro? How's his plunk and high-inside rate this year?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sure it's about the same as usual. the guy just doesn't care what a batter thinks of him (good). didn't he break up a perfecto once in Montreal by nailing someone?

[Jack of Arcades]

More.

[hoopsie44]

Not really. He hit 6 last year. His last 3 years with the Yanks, he hit 5, 7 and 5. In 1999-2000 he hit 10 and 9 with the Yanks.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
HBP: Walker (by Halama), Grudzielanek (by Mantei), Walker (by Mantei), Varitek (by Reyes), Youkilis (by Reyes).

thats not the correct order

[/ QUOTE ]


Ahh...

who started the plunk fest? (I saw it through highlights)

[youtalkfunny]

A friend of mine wonders why batters don't retaliate by whirly-birding a bat at the pitcher. If the pitcher can use a lethal weapon, why not the batter?

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
A friend of mine wonders why batters don't retaliate by whirly-birding a bat at the pitcher. If the pitcher can use a lethal weapon, why not the batter?

[/ QUOTE ]
What a moran. This is simply the most retarted thing I've ever heard.

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
Not really. He hit 6 last year. His last 3 years with the Yanks, he hit 5, 7 and 5. In 1999-2000 he hit 10 and 9 with the Yanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

So in the last 3 years with the Yankees, he hit an average of 5.67 batters, and in his first year with Houston he hi 6. Wow, that's a big [censored] difference the DH makes.

[hoopsie44]

I was responding to your answer of "more" when I asked you if Clemens hit more batters when he went to Houston. There was no difference. What were you responding to when you said "more."?

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A friend of mine wonders why batters don't retaliate by whirly-birding a bat at the pitcher. If the pitcher can use a lethal weapon, why not the batter?

[/ QUOTE ]
What a moran. This is simply the most retarted thing I've ever heard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea. What a tabacle.

[Jack of Arcades]

I said he hit more batters last year than he did the year before. 6 &gt; 5, no? In fact, 6 &gt; 5.67, no? Or are you going to tell me I'm wrong?

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
I said he hit more batters last year than he did the year before. 6 &gt; 5, no? In fact, 6 &gt; 5.67, no? Or are you going to tell me I'm wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]
Oh man. Don't play this game. Just go with it being the same and stick to the DH not making a difference.

[hoopsie44]

Case closed. There was no disagreement. I won't subject the board to any more of this.

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I said he hit more batters last year than he did the year before. 6 &gt; 5, no? In fact, 6 &gt; 5.67, no? Or are you going to tell me I'm wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]
Oh man. Don't play this game. Just go with it being the same and stick to the DH not making a difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand. I'm being perfectly clear here and someone is trying to tell me that 6 isn't greater than 5.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I said he hit more batters last year than he did the year before. 6 &gt; 5, no? In fact, 6 &gt; 5.67, no? Or are you going to tell me I'm wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]
Oh man. Don't play this game. Just go with it being the same and stick to the DH not making a difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand. I'm being perfectly clear here and someone is trying to tell me that 6 isn't greater than 5.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not statistically significant.

[Voltron87]

He's saying the difference between 5.67 and 6 is negligible, so you can say the DH doesn't make a difference.

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I said he hit more batters last year than he did the year before. 6 &gt; 5, no? In fact, 6 &gt; 5.67, no? Or are you going to tell me I'm wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]
Oh man. Don't play this game. Just go with it being the same and stick to the DH not making a difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand. I'm being perfectly clear here and someone is trying to tell me that 6 isn't greater than 5.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not statistically significant.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus. No [censored] it's not statistically significant. It's also more. Here's how the convo went:

"DH means Clemens gets to hit batters because he doesn't have to face retaliation"
"Clemens hit more batters in Houston last year than he hit in 2003 as a Yankee."
"No, he didn't.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
It's also more. Here's how the convo went:

"DH means Clemens gets to hit batters because he doesn't have to face retaliation"
"Clemens hit more batters in Houston last year than he hit in 2003 as a Yankee."
"No, he didn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it didn't.

[Jack of Arcades]

Sure looks like what was said to me. If you wann be specific he said "not really" and "there was no difference."

I said he hit more batters. Now if you want to say it's not signficant, whatever. He still hit more batters.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
I said he hit more batters last year than he did the year before. 6 &gt; 5, no? In fact, 6 &gt; 5.67, no? Or are you going to tell me I'm wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure what he and everyone else is telling you is that your an idiot.

[Dead]

Boston's pitchers drill people on purpose. They are subhumans garbage: You can go down the line starting with fat pitcher #1 Schilling, all the way down to their #5 pitcher, Fatteh Wells. Clement is also a little bitch who likes to headhunt.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I said he hit more batters last year than he did the year before. 6 &gt; 5, no? In fact, 6 &gt; 5.67, no? Or are you going to tell me I'm wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure what he and everyone else is telling you is that your an idiot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course he is an idiot. Anyone who approaches the game from a stat nerd perspective is obviously an idiot.


Jack of Arcade: "Well, his OPS+ is 1 point higher than the other guy's over this era, so he must be a better player."

[ripdog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My favorite plunk was when Robin Ventura charged the mound after Nolan Ryan hit him and Ryan proceeded to beat the crap out of him.

[/ QUOTE ]
Definitely. I'm also a big fan of the Unit's near-plunking of Kruk in the All-Star Game.

[/ QUOTE ]

My favorite was Randy Johnson (Seattle) versus Kenny Lofton (Cleveland). A pitch got away from Johnson and it put Lofton on the ground. Lofton got up screaming that Johnson was throwing at his head. Johnson threw the next pitch at his head for real and you could read his lips as he yelled at Lofton. Something like "THAT one was at your head". It was hilarious, but I was rooting for the Mariners. It probably wasn't as funny in Cleveland.

[Dead]

That totally wasn't funny. Lofton is a class act. This is just one of the reasons that I am embarrassed that Randy Johnson is on our team.

[ripdog]

[ QUOTE ]
That totally wasn't funny. Lofton is a class act. This is just one of the reasons that I am embarrassed that Randy Johnson is on our team.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate Johnson because he quit on the Mariners prior to his trade, but that incident was hilarious. The replays showed that the first pitch was up and in, but it wasn't that close to his head. Lofton way over-reacted and held the game up with his cry-baby routine. He was practically asking for what he got. If I had been in Lofton's shoes for the next pitch, I'd have started bailing out during Johnson's wind up. He'd have had to throw at the on deck circle to nail me. No knock on Lofton here, but he was being an incredibly whiny bitch during that at bat.

[ripdog]

[ QUOTE ]
A friend of mine wonders why batters don't retaliate by whirly-birding a bat at the pitcher. If the pitcher can use a lethal weapon, why not the batter?

[/ QUOTE ]

Griffey did this very early in his career after being thrown at. It seemed to send the right message.

[hoopsie44]

He's been a whiny bitch his whole career. Opening day last year in Japan he was moaning that Joe Torre had him in the ninth spot. Bernie Williams, a former batting champion, was in the 8 hole and never said a word. Later in the year he had his nose out of joint because Torre had him play right field. A very selfish, self centered(albeit talented) ballplayer.

[sublime]

who started the plunk fest? (I saw it through highlights)

halama hit walker, then the next inning varitek got plunked.

it was the lemest bean ball war i have ever seen. the second time mantei hit somebody was pure accident, as there were two strikes in the count andn tek was set up outside. the last thing the sox needed was a suspension in thier bullpen, yet they will recieve one. with bob 'yankee lover' watson handing out discpline, god knows how long it will be.

btw, reyes is the same scum that basically ruined nomars career. nice to see he still likes to come in on the hands.

[ripdog]

[ QUOTE ]
nice to see he still likes to come in on the hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's wrong with pitching inside? If the batter is all over the plate, it is the pitchers duty to back him off. If he doesn't do that, the batter gains a huge advantage. I would definitely come inside in this situation. If the players are wearing a ton of body armour, I'm coming in high and tight. If they want to jump into the middle of my strike zone, they're going to pay a high price.

[billymonk]

[ QUOTE ]

2. What percentage of all plunks are accidental, iyo?

[/ QUOTE ]

I recall John Smoltz saying that major league pitchers are good enough to throw the baseball where they want to when they want to, in regards to whether or not beanballs are on purpose.